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Thread: Over rated Vettori?

  1. #1
    International Captain Deja moo's Avatar
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    Over rated Vettori?

    Read this article on the baggygreen site, and felt it only confirmed what I already thought....that Daniel Vettori is a very over rated left arm spinner......

    He has often been touted as the best left-arm spinner in the world, but going strictly by his recent record, Daniel Vettori is perhaps only the eighth-best of his kind among the current crop. Over the last three years since January 1, 2001 Vettori has managed just over two wickets per Test, at a rather unflattering average of almost 50. Among the bowlers who have done better are Mohammad Rafique, Ray Price, Sanath Jayasuriya and Ashley Giles.

    A reason often offered in defence of Vettori is the kind of pitches he bowls on most of the time the tracks in New Zealand are mostly seamer-friendly, and provide little assistance to spinners. While that may be the case, Vettori has hardly come to the party in more spinner-friendly conditions: his 38 wickets in the subcontinent have come at 40 apiece.

    In his last 22 Tests, Vettori has taken only two five-fors, both of which came on the tour to Australia in 2001-02. Since then, 19 Tests have fetched him 35 wickets. The latest instance of underperformance came in the home series against South Africa. On pitches which were quite dry and favourable to spinners, Vettori came away with returns of four wickets in three Tests at an exorbitant average of 113.50. The contrast with Nicky Boje, the other left-arm spinner who played in the series, was especially stark in the final Test at Wellington Boje took four wickets in each innings to return superb match figures of 8 for 134; Vettori went wicketless though, to be fair to him, he was denied a couple of times by Asoka de Silva conceding 129 runs from 44 largely harmless overs

    Since Jan 2001 Tests Wkts Ave Wkt/Test SR
    Jayasuriya 32 39 27.36 1.22 75.41
    Rafique 9 39 28.54 4.33 66.9
    Boje 14 38 32.74 2.71 64.74
    Price 17 69 35.55 4.06 73.72
    Adams 12 40 35.98 3.33 61.03
    Henderson 7 22 42.18 3.14 89.18
    Giles 28 67 43.61 2.39 93.67
    Vettori 22 48 49.25 2.18 99.60
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    I think Daniel Vettori has been given a hard time and sure his recent results haven't been very impressive but surely as a young and talented player who has shown potential in the past, shouldn't he be given a fair go? Everyone has their off times. This guy has got what it takes. I am backing Vettori as I know he has what it takes.

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    State 12th Man blackcapsrule's Avatar
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    I think Daniel Vettori has been given a hard time and sure his recent results haven't been very impressive but surely as a young and talented player who has shown potential in the past, shouldn't he be given a fair go? Everyone has their off times. This guy has got what it takes. I am backing Vettori as I know he has what it takes.
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    International Debutant Waughney's Avatar
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    Not saying he should be dropped but he is overrated.
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    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waughney
    Not saying he should be dropped but he is overrated.
    Miandad seemed to put his foot in his mouth when he said that their are Irfan Pathans in every street of Pakistan. But believe me there are Vettoris a plenty in India and they will never get to play for the country. He is highly over rated and is lucky to be in a country where spinners are rare and good players of spin, rarer.

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    International Captain Loony BoB's Avatar
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    Overrated one or two years ago? Yes.

    Overrated? No. Who rates him as a "great" spinner these days? Nobody that I know of. Certainly nobody at these boards, so I don't know what's going on.

    Unlucky? Yes. I'd say he misses out of a lot of LBW's that should have been out, along with catches. Almost 1/2 of his potential wickets have been denied by umpire or fielder.

    Worth keeping? He's an average player. An all rounder, not a specialist bowler. His average with the bat over the past year or two has been better than half of NZ's team, and there's no denying he's getting better. There's also no denying he's lost all form with the ball and has only just now shown a glimmer of hope again. Still, he can offer change and his eco rate isn't bad, so I'm not knocking him alltogether, just saying he needs to improve with the ball.

    Worth keeping as the main spinner? Maybe. I think it would be worth giving Bruce Martin a shot, but I still think Vettori will prove himself the better of the two in the long run, and I wouldn't be surprised if Vettori betters himself as he nears 30.

    Vettori was at one point considered the best finger spinner in international cricket, and I think that he was at that point, then he lost it. It happens. Over time, people realised that he lost it - some took longer than others - but if he does lose out with the ball then he makes it up with the bat, and good on him for that. So long as he's capable of taking wickets, even 2 an innings, I think it's worth keeping him in the squad. Martin should be given a shot to see if he can do any better, but until that day comes we can't say that he is better. Vettori is a player that, although out of the form with the ball, is a contributing NZ'er who if anything these days is underrated as a cricketer on whole. Nobody likes him. I don't like his bowling much but I hope it gets better. I do like the fact that he bats, though, and he's consistently improving his batting, which is even better. Nobody gives him credit for that. That's why he's underrated. I'm sure his average over the past 10 tests or so prior to England was something over 40.
    Last edited by Loony BoB; 07-06-2004 at 01:24 PM.
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    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loony BoB
    Overrated one or two years ago? Yes.

    Overrated? No. Who rates him as a "great" spinner these days? Nobody that I know of. Certainly nobody at these boards, so I don't know what's going on.

    Unlucky? Yes. I'd say he misses out of a lot of LBW's that should have been out, along with catches. Almost 1/2 of his potential wickets have been denied by umpire or bowler

    Worth keeping? He's an average player. An all rounder, not a specialist bowler. His average with the bat over the past year or two has been better than half of NZ's team, and there's no denying he's getting better. There's also no denying he's lost all form with the ball and has only just now shown a glimmer of hope again. Still, he can offer change and his eco rate isn't bad, so I'm not knocking him alltogether, just saying he needs to improve with the ball.

    Worth keeping as the main spinner? Maybe. I think it would be worth giving Bruce Martin a shot, but I still think Vettori will prove himself the better of the two in the long run, and I wouldn't be surprised if Vettori betters himself as he nears 30.

    Vettori was at one point considered the best finger spinner in international cricket, and I think that he was at that point, then he lost it. It happens. Over time, people realised that he lost it - some took longer than others - but if he does lose out with the ball then he makes it up with the bat, and good on him for that. So long as he's capable of taking wickets, even 2 an innings, I think it's worth keeping him in the squad. Martin should be given a shot to see if he can do any better, but until that day comes we can't say that he is better. Vettori is a player that, although out of the form with the ball, is a contributing NZ'er who if anything these days is underrated as a cricketer on whole. Nobody likes him. I don't like his bowling much but I hope it gets better. I do like the fact that he bats, though, and he's consistently improving his batting, which is even better. Nobody gives him credit for that. That's why he's underrated. I'm sure his average over the past 10 tests or so prior to England was something over 40.
    Good post. Agree with everything except that he was once considered the best finger spinner in the world unless you add left arm to that.

    Still very well put.

  8. #8
    International Captain Loony BoB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS
    Good post. Agree with everything except that he was once considered the best finger spinner in the world unless you add left arm to that.

    Still very well put.
    Whoops, sorry, yes - left arm finger spinner.

  9. #9
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    one comment I recall hearing was from Richie Benaud who rated him very highly because of his craftsmanship in using flight & drift.............

    at the time there was a tendancy for finger spinners to fire it in quick & flat a la ODI defensive mode, and Benaud observed that Vettori was one of the first / few who brought flight & drift back into the finger spinner's game & used it as an offensive weapon..........at that same time he also had a very good arm ball...............

  10. #10
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    I think he's far from overrated.

    I think he's bowled very well, and been very unlucky.
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    Cricketer Of The Year JASON's Avatar
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    Vettori is certainly not over-rated . In fact he is one of the best spinners NZ ever had. I read somewhere, that he was advised to change his action by an ex-pakistani cricketer called "Billy Ibadulla" . Whatever Bill did, Vettori is not the same bowler ever since . I wonder if he should just revert to what he was bowling before the change in his action.

    He is also under a lot of pressure to get wickets (being the only spinner in NZ Team) in a Team that tries to accomodate bowling allrounders (likes of Cairns, Oram) and two Pacers only.(As such there is no room for selection of a second spinner such as Paul Wiseman). If he is expected to bowl out a whole batting side (a la Murali or Warne or Kumble), that is asking too much from him. But he is a bowler who can chip in with one or two wickets and share the wickets with others.(and occasionally get a 5er)
    Last edited by JASON; 09-06-2004 at 07:48 AM.

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    Cricket Web Moderator Neil Pickup's Avatar
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    IIRC, the action change was back-injury related, wasn't it?
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    International Debutant SpaceMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Pickup
    IIRC, the action change was back-injury related, wasn't it?
    What made Vettori so good was he could bowl balls that would dip just b4 they pitched and made batsmen misjudge the length, much like Shane Warne could do. He then suffered stress fractures of his back, which meant he had to change his action which resulted in him losing the 'dip' he had in his flight when he bowled with his re-modelled action.

  14. #14
    State Vice-Captain MoxPearl's Avatar
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    yeah he has lost the edge..

    maybe he will get it back ? who knows...

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    International Debutant SpaceMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoxPearl
    yeah he has lost the edge..

    maybe he will get it back ? who knows...
    I doubt it, the dip he got was directly caused by how he released the ball. unless he goes back to his old action (which is proven to do him serious damage) he'll never be the same

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