**Official** England in the West Indies 2017

[Beamer]

I'm not aware of the extent of it, but yes it is somewhat underhand from the ECB. I know it happens in all major sports really, but the issue is that it occupies a somewhat grey area where the ultimate decision lies with the individual.

Of course this is a completely different point to the spurious one Tom Flint was offering initially.

Yep spot on, there's nothing we can do about it, it's up to the individual and not many would forgo the extra security that £££s from the ECB would bring when the alternative is the WICB and all the chaos they bring.

The only people that can stop that are the ECB themselves and as people with no morals at all like Giles Clarke have been in charge i don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[91Jmay]

It's not even the ECB as much as individual counties. If they can get a good player qualified as British rather than overseas they are always going to do it. The idea the ECB has scouts going around the world looking for players is fanciful. I agree they condone it though which is largely the same as encouraging it.

 

[Tom Flint]

Imagine if joe root went to study in the carribean for a few years then decided he quite liked it out there and chose to play for the west indies instead.
Suppose that'd be fine then

 

[Neil Young]

But what he says isn't too far away from the truth when it comes to the Caribbean. Counties send scouts to Barbados every year, Jordan, Archer, Ruel Braithwaite all learned their cricket in Barbados. They are all Bajans through and through. I personally don't think it is right. But hey, it's a reality we have to deal with.

Maybe if Windies Cricket sorted their **** out, fleeing those shores wouldn't be such an attractive proposition.

 

[Neil Young]

Imagine if joe root went to study in the carribean for a few years then decided he quite liked it out there and chose to play for the west indies instead.
Suppose that'd be fine then

It would be up to Joe Root.

But this is happening in all walks of life across the globe and most definitely in a lot of sports (how 'bout all them Kenyans and Ethiopians running for Bahrain and Qatar?) These guys follow the money for the most part - it's a career choice - no-one holds a gun to their respective heads.

 

[Neil Young]

But when a player deliberately targets citizenship status of that country to further their career, the international game is surely not much different from the domestic set-up in most sports which have long since adopted the wandering mercenary, with their extra-local (British) signings, overseas and kolpack hirelings.

So what, though? If you're not happy supporting whoever you support, don't support them if their selection policies antagonise you so. Like England, there are a whole bunch of SA born cricketers playing in - and for - NZ. It doesn't bother me and I'm still a massive NZ cricket fan. Hell, we even have Aussie Dean in our one day side.

 

[S.Kennedy]

So what, though? If you're not happy supporting whoever you support, don't support them if their selection policies antagonise you so. Like England, there are a whole bunch of SA born cricketers playing in - and for - NZ. It doesn't bother me and I'm still a massive NZ cricket fan. Hell, we even have Aussie Dean in our one day side.

I wouldn't say ''it antagonises me so''. I'm not exactly the only one who has criticised Morgan or the Pietersens of the world, nor the most impassioned about the whole thing - not as much as Tom Flint. My main interest is county cricket anyhow so it is a little 'neither here nor there' for me to be honest - although that does bring into proceedings the thoroughly related kolpack discussion (opening up the residency issue further down the line).

 

[Beamer]

Maybe if Windies Cricket sorted their **** out, fleeing those shores wouldn't be such an attractive proposition.

No doubt about that. Does it make the ECBs approach right though? I'm not so sure. We're also up against pure economics. It is more profitable to play for England even with a well run and efficient WICB. So it will always be a challenge.

 

[grecian]

But what he says isn't too far away from the truth when it comes to the Caribbean. Counties send scouts to Barbados every year, Jordan, Archer, Ruel Braithwaite all learned their cricket in Barbados. They are all Bajans through and through. I personally don't think it is right. But hey, it's a reality we have to deal with.

Well, to be serious about Archer, he wasn't offered a contract by Barbados through competition and injury worries. Sussex took a chance, presumably have pumped a lot of money into keeping him fit, when Batbados wouldn't. If he didn't sign for Sussex where would he be, retired? Playing grade cricket, maybe not even fit enough to play.

Sussex took the risk, if he suddenly plays for the West Indies, they'd either have to take an injury-prone kid learning his trade as overseas player or let him go.

It's not English counties fault West Indies cricket is in a financial mess, and it can't really be poaching when Barbados don't want them. Perhaps the Bajans should dump some of these old players and invest in youth. Better for them and West Indies in the long run.

Anyway if you'd kept CJ, he would have just become another t20 mercenary like many others. Oh and you can have Ruel Braithwaite back too.

 

[Neil Young]

No doubt about that. Does it make the ECBs approach right though? I'm not so sure. We're also up against pure economics. It is more profitable to play for England even with a well run and efficient WICB. So it will always be a challenge.

Without wanting to be inflammatory, isn't a little bit ironic for you - who is I assume a UK based West Indian - to be criticising other West Indians for their choice to move to the UK?

You obviously know more about this topic than me, but do the ECB scout in schools in the WI? Is that what you are saying? If so, it's dubious, yeah. But again it's up to the individual if they want to go or not. Blood or money?

 

[Neil Young]

I wouldn't say ''it antagonises me so''. I'm not exactly the only one who has criticised Morgan or the Pietersens of the world, nor the most impassioned about the whole thing - not as much as Tom Flint. My main interest is county cricket anyhow so it is a little 'neither here nor there' for me to be honest - although that does bring into proceedings the thoroughly related kolpack discussion (opening up the residency issue further down the line).

Kolpak won't be an issue after the UK leaves Europe. Other than that, I am not sure of your point!

 

[S.Kennedy]

Kolpak won't be an issue after the UK leaves Europe. Other than that, I am not sure of your point!

Well I'm just saying is an interrelated argument, ''counties using kolpack mercenaries, denying local talent and eroding local identity'', and, ''England using foreign mercenaries'' with similar outcomes - and the fact that some of the kolpacks will qualify for England in x number of years which is pertinent.

 

[Neil Young]

Well I'm just saying is an interrelated argument, ''counties using kolpack mercenaries, denying local talent and eroding local identity'', and, ''England using foreign mercenaries'' with similar outcomes - and the fact that some of the kolpacks will qualify for England in x number of years which is pertinent.

Pertinent to what? I think I have come in midway through a debate and missed the relevant bits to what you are saying. Will read back.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Pertinent to what? I think I have come in midway through a debate and missed the relevant bits to what you are saying. Will read back.

A Kolpak signing a county deal today, in seven years time, could be eligible for England. He probably would be infact. You do not see the pertinence to a conversation about ''foreign nationals electing to play for England'' - well, I cannot help you there?

 

[Neil Young]

A Kolpak signing a county deal today, in seven years time, could be eligible for England. He probably would be infact. You do not see the pertinence to a conversation about ''foreign nationals electing to play for England'' - well, I cannot help you there?

Easy!

But, so what? If a Kolpak player decides to commit to England in x years time, what then? Is your point that you don't think this should be able to happen? If so, fair enough.

But, what Kolpak player are you referring to? They'll all be nearer 40 in 7 years time. Most of them, anyway, if that is the stand-down period.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Easy!

But, so what? If a Kolpak player decides to commit to England in x years time, what then? Is your point that you don't think this should be able to happen? If so, fair enough.

But, what Kolpak player are you referring to? They'll all be nearer 40 in 7 years time. Most of them, anyway, if that is the stand-down period.

Well I originally mentioned it just to point out that there is a related and similar discussion concerning the type of cricket I follow. Don't get your knickers in a twist about it. It was just something marginal.

 

[Neil Young]

Erm...

 

[Beamer]

Well, to be serious about Archer, he wasn't offered a contract by Barbados through competition and injury worries. Sussex took a chance, presumably have pumped a lot of money into keeping him fit, when Batbados wouldn't. If he didn't sign for Sussex where would he be, retired? Playing grade cricket, maybe not even fit enough to play.

Sussex took the risk, if he suddenly plays for the West Indies, they'd either have to take an injury-prone kid learning his trade as overseas player or let him go.

It's not English counties fault West Indies cricket is in a financial mess, and it can't really be poaching when Barbados don't want them. Perhaps the Bajans should dump some of these old players and invest in youth. Better for them and West Indies in the long run.

Anyway if you'd kept CJ, he would have just become another t20 mercenary like many others. Oh and you can have Ruel Braithwaite back too.

Yeah true Sussex have pumped money into keeping him fit recently, but whose system did he come through? Who put money into his development all the way up until last year?

As for CJ, tbf you have a good point, he was not going to break into the Barbados side anyway as he's not as good as Roach, Edwards or Cummins and it was a close battle with Holder and Braithwaite. My problem is with the opportunistic behaviour of counties when we need need all the resources ar our disposal. Hopefully Jimmy Adams can out something in place to at least mitigate that,

Every individual has a choice and I don't blame Archer or Jordan or anyone else. I'm an Anglo/Trini and understand the choice they are making. I just wish it wasn't so damn mercenary by a country with far greater resources at their disposal anyway.

 

[superkingdave]

Pretty sure Bill Athey used to go out to the caribbean and offer the best young prospect he could find a scholarship to Dulwich College. That's how Jordan came over here he's just the most prominent. Surrey didn't sign him up till he had been at Dulwich.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Yeah true Sussex have pumped money into keeping him fit recently, but whose system did he come through? Who put money into his development all the way up until last year?

As for CJ, tbf you have a good point, he was not going to break into the Barbados side anyway as he's not as good as Roach, Edwards or Cummins and it was a close battle with Holder and Braithwaite. My problem is with the opportunistic behaviour of counties when we need need all the resources ar our disposal. Hopefully Jimmy Adams can out something in place to at least mitigate that,

Every individual has a choice and I don't blame Archer or Jordan or anyone else. I'm an Anglo/Trini and understand the choice they are making. I just wish it wasn't so damn mercenary by a country with far greater resources at their disposal anyway.

Archer has even played for the WI u19s team and was a team mate of Alzarri Joseph when Zarri was just 16. Yes he wasn't given much of a chance with Bim but this is why the new franchise system we have is great because kids like Jofra can then move around. But that sellout Jordan apparently dangled a carrot infront of Archer and got him the contract with Sussex so it is what it is. Archer is no Joseph and he's no Chemar Holder either. Those two will be the future of our attack.

The county stuff is a worry though I must say. That's why our u19s beating Kent was both nice and a concern because you just know them coaches might try and get in the ear of some of our best kids and offer them a scholarship like they did with Jordan. We've got a young phenom named Jacob Bethell who is in the Barbados youth ranks . He's only 13 years old and he's breaking record after record, even had Lara watching him and wax lyrical about him the other day. He played a tournament in England recently dominated so much that the English county academies were lining up with big offers!!!...thankfully his parents are proud caribbeans and hopefully he's staying put. But it's still worrying when you have to protect even little kids now.

Anyway as for the last game. Same old same old!!..had England in huge trouble and then contrive to throw it away. The the number three spot needs Bravo back, Carlos needs to be dropped for Powell and Narine needs to be brought back in too. Hell Charles and Pollard should be looked at again aswell imo because you can't beat the experience that both had. Remember we beat SA twice in the tri-series with those guys in the team.

Cornwall? It's a tricky one...could have done with him in the last game but the kid has to show that he's comitted to being in the best shape possible and thus far he hasn't shown that. The board have given him a personal trainer and dietitian so lets see how that works out.