James Anderson v Tim Southee

[Howe_zat]

Luckily the thread title is just inflammatory enough to make people post without reading the OP

 

[harsh.ag]

Southee can get to where Jimmy is right now, but something drastic will need to change for that. Maybe going to Jordan will help. Hendrix to send invite and be the tour guide.

 

[indiaholic]

Weren't a lot of Anderson's troubles due to not being comfortable with his action? Don't think Southee has any such issues which when cleared will make him better.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

He definitely can, he's done it once already in his career.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Record since then is poor though, not like he kept it going is it?

 

[indiaholic]

Huh? Nobody is arguing that Southee is as good as Anderson, they are asking whether he can have a career transformation like Jimmy's. All Bahnz said was that he could because he has already shown he is capable of playing at a similarly high level.

 

[harsh.ag]

Huh? Nobody is arguing that Southee is as good as Anderson, they are asking whether he can have a career transformation like Jimmy's. All Bahnz said was that he could because he has already shown he is capable of playing at a similarly high level.

Yeah, but it's essentially a question of whether he will improve. If there is data which says he has gone downhill from a previous high, that is relevant.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Yeah, but it's essentially a question of whether he will improve. If there is data which says he has gone downhill from a previous high, that is relevant.

Also it not like it a temporary drop, it has been ages since he was good for more than the odd spell.

 

[FBU]

There's no much difference at the moment.

56 Tests

201 wickets at 31.45 econ 3.05 s/r 61.8 6/1 - Southee (28) [2070.2 overs]
205 wickets at 31.55 econ 3.29 s/r 57.4 10/1 - Anderson (28) [1961.1 overs]

 

[akilana]

i love how much anderson and broad boil the piss of oppo fans

Ya credit to them for being dicks

 

[SteveNZ]

Luckily the thread title is just inflammatory enough to make people post without reading the OP

Yeah it's a poor thread title. I was hoping someone would change it.

Amazingly similar numbers at Southee's stage of career. If anything, I'd expect his numbers to drift out slightly, not move the way Anderson has into ATG mode.

 

[Howe_zat]

There's no much difference at the moment.

56 Tests

201 wickets at 31.45 econ 3.05 s/r 61.8 6/1 - Southee (28) [2070.2 overs]
205 wickets at 31.55 econ 3.29 s/r 57.4 10/1 - Anderson (28) [1961.1 overs]

Good spot

By that stage in his career Anderson was on the rise though. Southee's been a lot more short term swings.

 

[Bahnz]

Record since then is poor though, not like he kept it going is it?

I don't consider a 2 and a half year run to be a purple patch if that's what you're suggesting. Southee achieved a real transformation in his bowling that endured against a variety of opponents and locales. I've got no doubt that he can return to that level if he sets his mind to it. Buuuut if you believe what people say about him, Tim's the sort of laid back guy who's probably never going to put in the work to consistently get the best out of himself. That's why less talented but more driven guys like Wagner and Boult will almost certainly finish with better career records than him.

 

[SteveNZ]

I don't consider a 2 and a half year run to be a purple patch if that's what you're suggesting. Southee achieved a real transformation in his bowling that endured against a variety of opponents and locales. I've got no doubt that he can return to that level if he sets his mind to it. Buuuut if you believe what people say about him, Tim's the sort of laid back guy who's probably never going to put in the work to consistently get the best out of himself. That's why less talented but more driven guys like Wagner and Boult will almost certainly finish with better career records than him.

Yeah that wasn't a purple patch, it was a period of achievement where he was most likely motivated by the loss of his position (thus his social standing) and also coached by two guys he greatly respected in Donald and Bond. With his spot absolutely bolted on and the fact he's coached by an Aussie FC journeyman who has nothing of note on his CV, there's no upswing anywhere on the horizon for mine.

It's not that he's laidback, just that he's not a guy motivated by cricketing greatness. His journey, I guess.

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah that wasn't a purple patch, it was a period of achievement where he was most likely motivated by the loss of his position (thus his social standing) and also coached by two guys he greatly respected in Donald and Bond. With his spot absolutely bolted on and the fact he's coached by an Aussie FC journeyman who has nothing of note on his CV, there's no upswing anywhere on the horizon for mine.

While this is all likely correct, I don't think Southee has the skills to be compared to Anderson. Apart from Anderson's unerring ability with the new ball when conditions suit, he can actually move the ball both ways, whereas Southee's really only has the outswinger & then the one he bowls across the seam which goes straight on as his variation. This saying nothing about the fact Anderson's also miles better than Southee at reverse-swing.

I'll be really surprised if Southee ends up averaging under 30 like Anderson does at the age of 34, assuming he plays that long.

I think while their career numbers might have some parallels, their skill level & heart, not quite so much.

 

[Bahnz]

I don't think being able to swing the ball both ways is necessarily that big of an asset. As long as you've got a variation sufficient to beat the bat or catch the edge then that's enough. You're quite right though about Southee - even at his best - never having shown the proficiency with the old ball that Anderson has.

 

[Athlai]

Did Anderson at his age? I'm pretty sure it was one of his chief criticisms.

 

[Zinzan]

I don't think being able to swing the ball both ways is necessarily that big of an asset.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, I think it's an enormous asset having the ability to take it both ways.

 

[thierry henry]

Thread derailment alert but: I've never quite understood this prevailing assumption, particularly among NZ fans, that Southee is the true talent of his generation while Boult by comparison is his limited but gutsy back-up.

Apart from the Raw Statzzzz which favour Boult, he also probably bowls a shade quicker on average and at peak (although they are both variable on this score), has shown a shade more ability to get it swinging both ways and is probably the more spectacular/exaggerated swinger of the ball when truly on song. He's also the better athlete and to me has the more aesthetically pleasing and athletic looking bowling action.

I'm also aware of the limitations of Boult's bowling but on a pure "raw talent and eye-test" score I would've thought he at least looks like the "talent" out of the two.

 

[DriveClub]

I don't think being able to swing the ball both ways is necessarily that big of an asset. As long as you've got a variation sufficient to beat the bat or catch the edge then that's enough. You're quite right though about Southee - even at his best - never having shown the proficiency with the old ball that Anderson has.

Depends on what type of bowler you are, for a pure swing bowler like Southee its an essential skill to move it both ways, not so much for someone like Steyn.

 

[Bahnz]

Depends on what type of bowler you are, for a pure swing bowler like Southee its an essential skill to move it both ways, not so much for someone like Steyn.

Southee's never swung it both ways, but instead got reams of wickets with a well disguised off cutter. Or at least he used to, kinda lacks the accuracy now to pose a real threat with it.