Andrew Flintoff vs Chris Cairns

[GIMH]

Qualitative difference between Bond and Flintoff though. Bond was very fit. He was just injury prone. Flintoff didn't work hard enough to be fit (unless he had a metabolic issue which I didn't know about).

I'm not sure his injury troubles circa 06 were down to how he looked after himself but rather his action etc.

His poor physical fitness was more of an early career thing, really.

Any all-rounder with his workload circa 06 would do well to come through unscathed.

Giving him the captaincy was a bridge too far, but hey, we'll always have Mumbai 06.

Captained his side to their first Test win in India for 20+ years, across the series averaged 50 with the bat and 30 with the ball, tied the series with a patched up team. Remarkable really. What a champion.

 

[Blocky]

Yup, meanwhile Cook manages close to 140 tests in a decade.

Ross Taylor debuted a year after Cook and has 76 tests.
McCullum debuted two years before and managed 101 tests (consecutive)

And that's a wealth of cricket compared to what the guys in the 80s and 90s got to play.

 

[GIMH]

Ross Taylor debuted a year after Cook and has 76 tests.
McCullum debuted two years before and managed 101 tests (consecutive)

And that's a wealth of cricket compared to what the guys in the 80s and 90s got to play.

To be clear I'm not using that against Cairns but it's fair enough to weigh the positives and negatives of such a schedule, especially with all-rounders (or fast bowlers in general).

 

[Blocky]

To be clear I'm not using that against Cairns but it's fair enough to weigh the positives and negatives of such a schedule, especially with all-rounders (or fast bowlers in general).

I'd say it's harder to sustain form and go on a run, playing less Test cricket.

It never ceases to amaze me that people don't realise NZ's ability in test cricket directly relates to how much they've managed to play. When we had a few seasons of over 10 tests per season, we suddenly became competitive... we've then had a winter with very little test cricket (against meaningful rivals) and we've fallen away again.

 

[GIMH]

I think that's a fair point, I do. But in isolation with respect to Flintoff, he'd have had a longer career if England didn't play all year round.

 

[Blocky]

I think that's a fair point, I do. But in isolation with respect to Flintoff, he'd have had a longer career if England didn't play all year round.

Flintoff with almost 80 tests over 11 years had a reasonably long career, he just had a very short peak. There are a lot of "greats" from nations other than England and Australia who never get to 80 tests.

Also your stats indicate that Flintoff's peak during that Ashes era in 2005 didn't blow Cairns peak away, when you take that into account and look at their entire careers - Cairns played 17 less tests, yet was only 8 wickets short of Flintoff, and 500 runs. He wasn't as lucky as Flintoff to have played with a side as good as Vaughan's 2004-2006 vintage and didn't get enough cracks at Australia with a fully fit team unit to make a dent.

 

[Blocky]

But with all that being said, Flintoff in his absolute pomp was a far better bowler than Cairns in my view, some of those spells he conjured up when his team needed it were amazing.

 

[andruid]

I'd say it's harder to sustain form and go on a run, playing less Test cricket.

It never ceases to amaze me that people don't realise NZ's ability in test cricket directly relates to how much they've managed to play. When we had a few seasons of over 10 tests per season, we suddenly became competitive... we've then had a winter with very little test cricket (against meaningful rivals) and we've fallen away again.

This is the fatal flaw of international cricket.

 

[Victor Ian]

Without wishing to derail the thread too much, your argument Hadlee needed green-tops also falls over when you see his away average was better (21.72), than his home one (22.96).

And his record in Australia, 77 wickets @ 17 in just 12 test matches was even better still So unless you're also implying Aust wickets were even greener.... but I don't think you were.

Now enjoy your dinner.

I'd be curious as to Hadlees breakdown against real batsmen. For instance, that seems impressive that he averaged 17 against Australia. But the only real batsman in that team actually averaged more than normal when Hadlee played. Could Hadlee look so awesome merely because Australia were actually beneath rubbish? I think more context is needed.

Actually scratch that. Hadlee is super amaze balls - blows my mind, type of incredible. How good would a batsman's fighting instinct be to increase his average when such a bowler was playing?

 

[listento_me]

Flintoff by a Freddy mile.

Not only is he the better all rounder, he is also the far superior tv personality and boxer.

 

[listento_me]

I'd say it's harder to sustain form and go on a run, playing less Test cricket.

It never ceases to amaze me that people don't realise NZ's ability in test cricket directly relates to how much they've managed to play. When we had a few seasons of over 10 tests per season, we suddenly became competitive... we've then had a winter with very little test cricket (against meaningful rivals) and we've fallen away again.

Aren't NZ about to play their 5th or 6th test series in a year and will be playing their 13th or so test match in a period of a little under 12 months. They've been pretty busy but also pretty mediocre. They have looked completely overwhelmed by the likes of Australia, India and South Africa.

NZ seem to go through patches of being very good and by the time they had beaten SL they had probably reached their absolute best test condition in years. That equated with fewer tests in a year than now but included wins over England, Windies and India plus that very good series in the UAE against Pak. I think a lot of that probs has to do with Mc no longer being around.

 

[Burgey]

I was disappointed when Cairns was involved in controversy because I loved him as a cricketer. Really legit all rounder, great player.

Yeah ditto. He was awesome to watch. Always took it on.

 

[harsh.ag]

Cairns would have been a blockbuster draw had he played for England or Australia. Vote goes to him.

Flintoff a wonderful man and great to watch when on song. All heart. Waiting for a movie on him where he's played by Rupert Grint.

 

[Zinzan]

Cairns would have been a blockbuster draw had he played for England or Australia.

A point so often overlooked, I used to think the same about Crowe had he been Australian.

 

[fredfertang]

At least Freddie was the best all-rounder in his family

 

[Burgey]

A point so often overlooked, I used to think the same about Crowe had he been Australian.

Crowe was the bomb. So sad he died so young. Was a complete player.

 

[fredfertang]

Crowe was the bomb. So sad he died so young. Was a complete player.

Indeed - second only to Barry Richards as the batsman I've most enjoyed watching

 

[mr_mister]

Cairns would have been a blockbuster draw had he played for England or Australia. Vote goes to him.

Flintoff a wonderful man and great to watch when on song. All heart. Waiting for a movie on him where he's played by Rupert Grint.

I know you're joking anyway but there's more than half a foot height difference ha