Something to make Kiwis smile

[Burgey]

Sucking on a lemon would make a lot of Kiwis smile.

 

[Zinzan]

Vettori & Taylor's captaincy always had one thing in common for me looking in from the outside; & that was their often sarky & cynical body language. That 'I'm too cool for school' persona.

You could sense it would have been an uncomfortable environment for those player on the outer in terms of being petrified to make a mistake; & that of course was the major change when Bmac took over. A new level trust took place in which they'd back one another in both good and bad times.

I could be totally wrong in that observation, but that's the way I saw it from afar as a fan.

 

[Zinzan]

I think Taylor would've done better if John Wright had stayed on as coach. The team wasn't happy, but while Wright was there at least there was a strong figure to support Taylor and help him with the man management side of things. In retrospect, once Wright decided he'd had enough of getting dicked around by the NZC for one life time, there was always a risk that things were going to come apart quite quickly.

Will be interesting to hear Guptill and KW's spin on things in a decade's time.

Wright staying on may have helped a little, but Taylor just doesn't have the right temperament to skipper for any length of time imo.

Did nobody see the way he carried on when NZ got a couple of tough decisions in the 2nd Test vs. India? It's one thing to shake your head over a bad decision, but he was mouthing off swear words under his breath for about 5 minutes straight. Not a great signal to send to his team.

 

[Niall]

From what I've been told the period between 2008 and 2011 was just pure hell in the New Zealand set up. Vettori and his mates pretty much run the show, dictated who made squads, how practice was run, when and how often they trained. There was absolutely no need for coaching or even a decent management team in those players eyes. Bullying was rife too which sounds stupid when it comes to grown men but unfortunately that was the case. I'm sure nobody here forgets Williamson (he wasn't officially named but it was him) being ripped on for wanting to train too hard. The culture was just ****ing toxic.

Taylor was never a favourite between Vettori and his gang, no wonder he struggled when he took over.

Who would be in the "Vettori" gang out of curiosity?

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Wright staying on may have helped a little, but Taylor just doesn't have the right temperament to skipper for any length of time imo.

Did nobody see the way he carried on when NZ got a couple of tough decisions in the 2nd Test vs. India? It's one thing to shake your head over a bad decision, but he was mouthing off swear words under his breath for about 5 minutes straight. Not a great signal to send to his team.

McCullum does also mention in one of those extracts that Wright was a shambles as coach, I think?

 

[Flem274*]

Rumours at the time were that Wright was a pretty unhelpful coach, coming up with gems like "stop getting out" or something similar.

tbf Zinzan on the wahhhing you've described every modern Australian skipper ever, especially Steve Smith. Ganguly too.

Rumoured Vettori gang was something like McCullum, Oram, Mills and Southee. Whether those rumours have any substance who knows. I hope not.

It's always going to be he said she said between Baz and Ross (when his book comes) unless someone neutral like Kane, Bond or some random physio pipes up, and tbf Bond was very unhappy at the time.

 

[Zinzan]

tbf Zinzan on the wahhhing you've described every modern Australian skipper ever, especially Steve Smith. Ganguly too.

That's not a point in it's favour.

 

[Zinzan]

Rumoured Vettori gang was something like McCullum, Oram, Mills and Southee. .

The first 3 sound about right, not so sure about Southee though, apart from that infamous Test win in SL when tensions were apparently high between he & Taylor.

It's always going to be he said she said between Baz and Ross (when his book comes) unless someone neutral like Kane, Bond or some random physio pipes up, and tbf Bond was very unhappy at the time .

Not just Bond, nobody was happy about the way that was done in hindsight. Taylor was hung out to dry & pretty sure McCullum said that at the time, but that doesn't change the fact Taylor probably didn't have the right temperament to be a good NZ skipper for a long period.

Aggressive in-your-face skippers with volatile temperaments may suit Australian and even Indian sides as you mentioned in Smith & Ganguly, but NZ cricket skippers generally do better if they're more diplomatic and have the man management to get the best out of what isn't generally much world class talent , eg, Bmac & Fleming. Howarth was probably an exception to the rule.

 

[NZTailender]

I don't think Taylor was a great captain, nor has the right temperament for it, but one feels he was setup to fail in a lot of respects. He took over what seems like a divided camp of Mean Girls and decent folk (Williamson et al) and was suppose to mould that into a decent unit. One feels the mean Girls clique, who would've preferred Baz, wouldn't have made it easy for Ross at any point.

 

[NZTailender]

Basically the coterie could be identified as Academy ****s, resentful that their skills were ruined and these young upstarts with genuine techniques were always going to fare better

 

[indiaholic]

With a title like that this thread was destined to become a series of posts about Taylor's sadness, infighting within the team and general NZ doom and gloom

 

[Howsie]

Who would be in the "Vettori" gang out of curiosity?

Kyle Mills, Jacob Oram, Darryl Tuffey, Scott Styris and then obviously Brendon McCullum. That group pretty much ran NZC from the time they had Andy Moles fired up until John Wright decided he had had enough. Honestly, I don't believe a lot of people would believe some of the **** that went down with that team during that time. Would've made for a fantastic Drama/Soap that is for sure.

 

[Howsie]

I don't think Taylor was a great captain, nor has the right temperament for it, but one feels he was setup to fail in a lot of respects. He took over what seems like a divided camp of Mean Girls and decent folk (Williamson et al) and was suppose to mould that into a decent unit. One feels the mean Girls clique, who would've preferred Baz, wouldn't have made it easy for Ross at any point.

Except for Martin Guptill, Taylor didn't have a single good friend that was a regular in that team. He had plenty of guys that he didn't get on with though. Guys that wouldn't have a problem undermining him, or attempting to make him look bad. He got that captaincy gig because Wright thought he along with Taylor could change the culture of that team and didn't want to see another 2-3 years of the crap Vettori pulled with McCullum.

 

[Flem274*]

How was Darryl Tuffey running a team he barely played for? That's hilarious haha

Reckon there's a direct correlation between losing and never having any players fit and the "stop working so hard" stuff? I do if it's true (and I remember the comments from the time Howsie is talking about)

 

[Howsie]

He was on the outside obvs, but he was part of that group.

Edit: And that's probably all...

 

[Zinzan]

He was on the outside obvs, but he was part of that group.

Edit: And that's probably all I should say....

I'm not sure anything would shock us after the milkshake romp would it?

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Well ... fingers crossed Taylor does pen a book some day and tell his side of things.

Generally frowning on players who train to much is not going to lead to a successful or match fit side.

I don't remember hearing that at the time, but was generally pretty disillusioned with the national side from the moment Bond got barred, again with Taylor getting cut, up until McCullum finally won a test as captain. Bleak years.

 

[Jono]

Keen to read McCullum's book, will be an interesting read. That World Cup story is good. Not sure if he's telling the truth about the take-down of Rossco, one would think he had some part in it but then again who knows.

Dared to say it at the time that it may have been the right call to drop Rossco as captain based on reports of his inability to talk to his team, and got absolutely leapt on for daring to suggest such a thing. The way it was done was ugly no doubt, but Rossco was lacking in a lot of traits that traditionally make a good leader in cricket IMO. And whilst he is a very good batsman, he wasn't that good where he could just lead from the front and let his bat do the talking every match - notwithstanding the awesome Sri Lanka 2nd test knock.

Proved to be a great move for NZ cricket.

 

[Howsie]

I'm not sure anything would shock us after the milkshake romp would it?

ICL and stuff that might've happened there

 

[Zinzan]

ICL and stuff that might've happened there

Ahh yes, well that's mostly out there now, with a few names thrown about in the whole Cairns saga.