Yasir Shah: Century Man

[Black_Warrior]

I love how everyone completes disregards Ajmal now. It's great.

It's just CW snobbery that's all. There's a lot more gray and nuance to the chucking conversation and unfortunately CW despite being a great forum for intelligent discussions for most part, this is the one topic where CW only sees black and white...you either support the government, or you're an anti national to be tried for treason.

 

[Jono]

Have you ever actually made this asterisk argument in the countless threads involving Warne including the comparison threads? Not doubting you..just a genuine question. Just never seen this being brought up by anyone here when assessing Warne as a bowler.

If someone claimed Warne had a record where that period included wickets obtained in the immediate period before a drug ban, yes. If someone says "was Warne a good bowler", no.

 

[cnerd123]

It's just CW snobbery that's all. There's a lot more gray and nuance to the chucking conversation and unfortunately CW despite being a great forum for intelligent discussions for most part, this is the one topic where CW only sees black and white...you either support the government, or you're an anti national to be tried for treason.

Lol

I still rate Ajmal, but its hard for me to know how much of his career was legally bowled.

He was cleared in 2009 by the newly accredited testing facility at the University of Brisbane, which used ICC protocols that are not publicly available, and that differ from the ones developed by the University of Western Australia - the ones who had been doing all of the tests since 1995 and that had cleared Murali.

Infact, the UWA had conducted tests on Ajmal in 2009 too, at the same time, and they concluded that it was not possible "to say conclusively that bowling actions in the laboratory testing are identical to that displayed on the playing field, the comparison in this instance is significantly hampered by the limitations in the provided match footage"

He was then found chucking by the same Brisbane lab by huge amounts - 36 to 43 degrees over 37 balls. And it was clear from footage of him bowling that his action was getting more and more ragged over the years, clearly an effect of being overbowled

At what point he went from legal to chucking, IDK. Was the Brisbane lab using the exact same testing protocols in 2014 as they were in 2009? IDK. Was he even bowling legally back in 2009, when compared to other bent-arm spinners who were cleared by the UWA? IDK.

Just so many question makes here. And Ajmal's action was definitely one that would benefit from straightening his arm at time of release - he said as much himself - "I took out some old videos and compared it to the Sri Lanka series and it seemed to me like some problem had come in the action. I don't know whether it was because I put more into the ball because I wasn't getting wickets. I wasn't getting them out, so maybe I put more force into it and that caused it. But I don't know."

I was a huge fan of Ajmal's bowling, and he was a great guy, but it's hard for me to know where to rank him as a bowler with all this. His best years were closer to when he was found to be chucking that they were to when he was clean. He was nowhere as effective when he returned from rehabbing his action.

It's not black and white for me, it's just too gray and nuanced for me to make a clear decision on how to evaluate him. So I just ignore him all together.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah he had a period of about 20 Tests where he took 100+ wickets at around 23-24, but then significantly regressed.

Greg Blewett wishes he'd faded a little bit quicker. ****ing nailed him with the wrong 'un out here in the late 90s.

 

[weldone]

What got people was his exceptional control.

Lol, so control alone can give you 600+ wickets? Other medium pacers were lacking in control then.

Chris Harris was a medium pacer with exceptional control too. Last time I checked, he retired with 16 test wickets @ 73.13. Bad decision imo - if he continued, 600 more was only a matter of time.

 

[Black_Warrior]

If someone claimed Warne had a record where that period included wickets obtained in the immediate period before a drug ban, yes. If someone says "was Warne a good bowler", no.

But record doesn't just have to be about a specific milestone. Warne has 708 wickets. That's his record but it also includes for example, wickets in Ashes 2002. which would be the period right before his ban in early 2003. So would you for example say there is an asterisk to Warne's 708 wickets?

 

[Black_Warrior]

Lol, so control alone can give you 600+ wickets? Other medium pacers were lacking in control then.

Chris Harris was a medium pacer with exceptional control too. Last time I checked, he retired with 16 test wickets @ 73.13. Bad decision imo - if he continued, 600 more was only a matter of time.

Kumble had great control for a spinner..there's no denying that. But he also had variety. He had a googly, he had a quicker one, he had a straighter one, and he could also use the rough area like most good spinners. These things are not contradictory.

 

[weldone]

Kumble had great control for a spinner..there's no denying that. But he also had variety. He had a googly, he had a quicker one, he had a straighter one, and he could also use the rough area like most good spinners. These things are not contradictory.

exactly...and he also had bounce, change of pace, etc.

To say 'what got people was his exceptional control' is wrong.

It's a shame that some people don't mention Kumble while discussing great legspinners.

 

[honestbharani]

Kumble had great control for a spinner..there's no denying that. But he also had variety. He had a googly, he had a quicker one, he had a straighter one, and he could also use the rough area like most good spinners. These things are not contradictory.

Kumble's googly happened only in late 2003 though.. He had already had a decade of international cricket without a decent googly.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Lol

I still rate Ajmal, but its hard for me to know how much of his career was legally bowled.

He was cleared in 2009 by the newly accredited testing facility at the University of Brisbane, which used ICC protocols that are not publicly available, and that differ from the ones developed by the University of Western Australia - the ones who had been doing all of the tests since 1995 and that had cleared Murali.

Infact, the UWA had conducted tests on Ajmal in 2009 too, at the same time, and they concluded that it was not possible "to say conclusively that bowling actions in the laboratory testing are identical to that displayed on the playing field, the comparison in this instance is significantly hampered by the limitations in the provided match footage"

He was then found chucking by the same Brisbane lab by huge amounts - 36 to 43 degrees over 37 balls. And it was clear from footage of him bowling that his action was getting more and more ragged over the years, clearly an effect of being overbowled

At what point he went from legal to chucking, IDK. Was the Brisbane lab using the exact same testing protocols in 2014 as they were in 2009? IDK. Was he even bowling legally back in 2009, when compared to other bent-arm spinners who were cleared by the UWA? IDK.

Just so many question makes here. And Ajmal's action was definitely one that would benefit from straightening his arm at time of release - he said as much himself - "I took out some old videos and compared it to the Sri Lanka series and it seemed to me like some problem had come in the action. I don't know whether it was because I put more into the ball because I wasn't getting wickets. I wasn't getting them out, so maybe I put more force into it and that caused it. But I don't know."

I was a huge fan of Ajmal's bowling, and he was a great guy, but it's hard for me to know where to rank him as a bowler with all this. His best years were closer to when he was found to be chucking that they were to when he was clean. He was nowhere as effective when he returned from rehabbing his action.

It's not black and white for me, it's just too gray and nuanced for me to make a clear decision on how to evaluate him. So I just ignore him all together.

Well that's great. That is a lot of gray. I just find it strange that you would end it by saying "So I just ignore him all together". If that's how you feel then express yourself with all that nuance. This whole "pretend he doesn't exist' is what I'm getting at. I mean there's a lot of to be talked about when it comes to the subject of chucking.

1) the limit of 15 degrees. Given that it was changed in the past, that just shows it's not set in stone so who knows what the limit would be some time in the future.

2) The entire testing process. This is the technical side of the conversation which involves understanding and analysing the methods used, how effective, transparent and fair they are.

And then, even after we agree an all of the above and say yes we agree with 15 degrees and yes we are satisfied the testing process is correct and fair, there's still a lot more to talk about specifically about Ajmal. The very fact that even with the extra advantage he would be getting, there is still considerable skill, hard work, focus, and fitness required to bowl over after over, work out great batsmen and try to defeat them, like every other spin bowler. Obtaining an advantage due to his action does not negate the skills required in all the other facets of spin bowling. I mean I can bend my arm 40 degrees and attempt to bowl and I'm certain I won't be getting anyone out.

Ultimately I don't see why these conversations cannot be had and why it has to be one or the other or ignore altogether.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Kumble's googly happened only in late 2003 though.. He had already had a decade of international cricket without a decent googly.

Are you sure about this? I dont know.. I seem to remember him bowling googlies in the late 90s too.

 

[vcs]

It was somewhat counter-intuitive how Kumble was never a great ODI bowler... you'd think his style of bowling would have been perfectly suited to that format. Still, he demolished the WI a couple of times in the early '90s (Hero Cup final and another ODI tri-series final in India). Saying that, he pretty much carried our home Test attack for most of his career and I wouldn't swap that for anything.

 

[weldone]

It was somewhat counter-intuitive how Kumble was never a great ODI bowler... you'd think his style of bowling would have been perfectly suited to that format. Still, he demolished the WI a couple of times in the early '90s (Hero Cup final and another ODI tri-series final in India). Saying that, he pretty much carried our home Test attack for most of his career and I wouldn't swap that for anything.

In 1993-98 under Azhar, he was very very good with 195 wickets @ 25.76 and ER of 4.12

 

[vcs]

It was a fairly short-lived peak. Considering his quality and the amount of emphasis we used to put on ODIs back then, he could have done more is all I'm saying. Remember SL in particular used to handle him quite easily.

 

[Burgey]

exactly...and he also had bounce, change of pace, etc.

To say 'what got people was his exceptional control' is wrong.

It's a shame that some people don't mention Kumble while discussing great legspinners.

It's because he's a whinger.

 

[viriya]

murarli chucked his whole career and we still love him (yeah i dont need tests to tell me otherwise i have eyes)

but like, tbh i dont really care about chucking i dont think it gives a huge advantage anyway

Make sure to use eyes not spreadsheets...

 

[listento_me]

That mantle belongs to Qadir alone.



Yes. I have memories of the 99 series where Warne tonked him and he went for 193 runs in the 1st test. Played barely 3-4 tests for Pakistan after that.

Fair enough.

It's just CW snobbery that's all. There's a lot more gray and nuance to the chucking conversation and unfortunately CW despite being a great forum for intelligent discussions for most part, this is the one topic where CW only sees black and white...you either support the government, or you're an anti national to be tried for treason.

More like snobbery from a certain group of 'fans' lol

Lol, so control alone can give you 600+ wickets? Other medium pacers were lacking in control then.

Chris Harris was a medium pacer with exceptional control too. Last time I checked, he retired with 16 test wickets @ 73.13. Bad decision imo - if he continued, 600 more was only a matter of time.

Can u quote me where I said it's control alone?

I said it was his exceptional control that got people, not just that. Any in depth analysis would also mention his change of length and pace. But his key feature, like that of mcgrath was control and accuracy. I'm not going to argue with what's an established cricketing fact.

exactly...and he also had bounce, change of pace, etc.

To say 'what got people was his exceptional control' is wrong.

It's a shame that some people don't mention Kumble while discussing great legspinners.

Like I said above.

Well that's great. That is a lot of gray. I just find it strange that you would end it by saying "So I just ignore him all together". If that's how you feel then express yourself with all that nuance. This whole "pretend he doesn't exist' is what I'm getting at. I mean there's a lot of to be talked about when it comes to the subject of chucking.

1) the limit of 15 degrees. Given that it was changed in the past, that just shows it's not set in stone so who knows what the limit would be some time in the future.

2) The entire testing process. This is the technical side of the conversation which involves understanding and analysing the methods used, how effective, transparent and fair they are.

And then, even after we agree an all of the above and say yes we agree with 15 degrees and yes we are satisfied the testing process is correct and fair, there's still a lot more to talk about specifically about Ajmal. The very fact that even with the extra advantage he would be getting, there is still considerable skill, hard work, focus, and fitness required to bowl over after over, work out great batsmen and try to defeat them, like every other spin bowler. Obtaining an advantage due to his action does not negate the skills required in all the other facets of spin bowling. I mean I can bend my arm 40 degrees and attempt to bowl and I'm certain I won't be getting anyone out.

Ultimately I don't see why these conversations cannot be had and why it has to be one or the other or ignore altogether.

I think you're probably talking to a brick wall tbh lol

Anyway this is about shah not ajmal of Ashwin or chucking kumble.

 

[listento_me]

I'm going to add exceptional fielding to shahs greatness too. Seriously one of the bets fielders around today.

 

[smash84]

I'm going to add exceptional fielding to shahs greatness too. Seriously one of the bets fielders around today.

lol, dude, you're wayyy too enamored by Yasir at the moment. Relax, wait some time. One great catch doesn't mean he's one of the best fielders going around.

 

[weldone]

Haha ya that was the real fanboy moment.