Ashwin's streak and position

[OverratedSanity]

I think he has a very good claim for being the GOAT finger spinner already. Tayfield and Gibbs (and Herath if you include left) the closest competition.

Laker?

 

[viriya]

If that's the case, why are Warne's stats in the 2000's in England better than the 90's?

Warne retired in 2007. Pietersen debuted in 2005, Cook 2006, Root 2012. He missed the England batting resurgence (as did Murali).

 

[viriya]

Laker?

Yep, missed him.

 

[smash84]

The big difference is that Eng in the 90s were walking wickets for spinners. Still not great but not as terrible anymore. That's why Warne's Ashes stats aren't that impressive - Murali dominated Eng in Eng even more he just didn't play as much.

Warne was significantly more effective against Pakistan as well though, it wasn't just the english he was good against (who were supposedly walking wickets)

 

[Shri]

Harbhajan vs Swann is an interesting comparison. I don't think there's much between them at all.
cricrate | Harbhajan Singh vs Graeme Swann - Test Bowling

^ Swann had a slightly better first 60 tests, but Harbhajan was around much longer. Just got worse with time though so that's why Bhajji isn't clearly better.

Swann neither hit the highs nor the lows that Bhajji hit.

 

[viriya]

I have been a bit critical of Ashwin previously and while he does need to do it away from home to prove he is great there is no doubting his ability at home and the amount of wickets he is getting of late. Given the fact that half the time away the Indian side as a whole doesn't show up then it is a bit harsh to single out Ashwin for criticism, he is picking up wickets as quickly as Murali and Warne used to at present so you have to give him credit. Will be fascinating to see how England play him as he has had very little success against us in comparison to other sides.

Not even Murali has been this dominant at home (although he did maintain a slightly lower level for a much longer period). Warne has never been this dominant (wicket-taking wise).

 

[honestbharani]

From memory he made his ODI debut in 1999 but got jettisioned for about another 8 years because of a lack of puncuality (amongst other things). Shame because during the 2000's England could have really done with him.

That must be it. Thanks mate

 

[harsh.ag]

The English, even in England, truly were walking wickets against Warne and Murali till the early 2000s. Don't know if this is true for the other spinners of the era though.

 

[viriya]

Warne was significantly more effective against Pakistan as well though, it wasn't just the english he was good against (who were supposedly walking wickets)

Warne's Pak stats are great but slightly deceiving because 27 of his 90 wickets vs them were in a series where Inzamam and Yousuf didn't play because of board disputes (as I recall) and Pak fielded a second string side. His average vs Pak goes from 20.2 -> 23.4 without those. I'm nitpicking here of course.

 

[viriya]

Swann neither hit the highs nor the lows that Bhajji hit.

Yep, and since Swann was not likely to improve on his record if he stayed for ~40 more tests, Harbhajan's record doesn't look as bad vs him.

 

[honestbharani]

The English, even in England, truly were walking wickets against Warne and Murali till the early 2000s. Don't know if this is true for the other spinners of the era though.

Mushy was very successful against them too in England.. recall some around the wicket googlies that bowled their right handers playing for the leg spin

 

[smash84]

Warne's Pak stats are great but slightly deceiving because 27 of his 90 wickets vs them were in a series where Inzamam and Yousuf didn't play because of board disputes (as I recall) and Pak fielded a second string side. His average vs Pak goes from 20.2 -> 23.4 without those. I'm nitpicking here of course.

you definitely are. I can find 2 or 3 tests where some of pak's frontline batsmen were out against murali too.

 

[smash84]

why the **** is this thread descending into Warne vs Murali ?

On topic please

 

[OverratedSanity]

A warne vs Murali debate. How surprising.

Call me when we have a Would Bradman have averaged even 70 in the modern era discussion.

 

[weldone]

Would Bradman have averaged even 70 in the modern era

Coming back to the thread topic - I don't think Bradman would average above 45 facing Ashwin in India.

 

[akilana]

I've always held Swann's ridiculously short career against him when rating him overall. He played barely a full 5 years of test cricket. I don't think his career can even be considered as impressive as Harbhajan's, even though Swann was clearly a better bowler.

Doesnt stop Flintoff being regarded an odi ATG by CW.

 

[listento_me]

not a week goes by that Ashwin seems to be near the top of some sort of bowling list.

Is he into the ATG bowlers category yet? What more does he need to do?

Where does he currently rank in the list of ATG spin bowlers and also among AT Indian bowlers?

I have seen a bit of him but not enough to come to any conclusive judgement?

Thoughts? Especially from people who have followed his career closely?

I've followed a lot of his career and he is certainly a far better spinner than he was initially. Unlike many modern Indian spinners he gets the ball to spin. That's amazing in itself.

However he at no stage has shown the magic of ajmal or the class of swann. So 3Rd best of his gen.. So far. He is young enough for a few more away series, we'll see how he does then.

As a batsman, he is better than most guys in the lower order and I'd trust him to score good runs on any dead wicket.

 

[viriya]

you definitely are. I can find 2 or 3 tests where some of pak's frontline batsmen were out against murali too.

Actually you won't be able to find a similar situation because this didn't happen because of injuries. That Aus vs Pak series was unique. Pak got bowled out for <60 twice in one of those tests.

Last post on this I promise.

 

[Furball]

If his pitches are so bowler friendly in India why can't every other dumb **** spinner bowl well on them? Not buying the "doesnt grow up on them" argument because if its a turner you still shouldn't be ****. Sure Ashwin is more used to it that you won't outperform him but why are you ****? And I don't buy the "Indian batsmen are great against spin and Ashwin doesn't bowl to them" line, because India's batsmen aren't that good against spin anymore. Nowhere near what they were 5-8 years ago.

There is daylight between Ashwin and Herath and the rest, and Herath won't be around for much longer. Ashwin is a one of a kind spinner in today's age in that he's not a ****ing embarrassment like all the other ****s.

Nah come on. Different conditions requires different bowling skills. It's not as simplistic as saying 'well duh he grew up in India' but you can't bowl the same in India as you would in Australia or England and expect the same results. Same way that the type of fast bowler who does well in England is not the same as the type who does well in Australia.

Ashwin and Herath have absolutely terrible records in England and Australia btw.

 

[weldone]

Muralitharan has a terrible record in Australia. Warne has a terrible record in India.