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My All Time Test and ODI XI

Contra

Cricketer Of The Year
Just look at their records, especially Sehwag's. He did relatively well in Australia, averaging 41 against generally very good bowlers, but let's be honest they do have predominately flat decks there where you can hit through the line even against good attacks.

The fact Sehwag averages 20 in NZ in 9 innings without a 50, 25 in SA in 15 innings and 27 in Eng in 10 innings says it all really... I mean those aren't tiny sample sizes...
This is just about the worst way to analyze Sehwag's career (or anyones career for that matter), and tells me you haven't really watched or followed his actual career at all. 10 and 9 innings are definitely not tiny but hardly big enough to really make a full fledged judgement on any player. Also just ftr he average almost 47 IN Australia, the 41 you are getting is both home and away average against Aus (which means he did better against Australia IN Aus rather than at home).

Sehwag first tourned NZ in 2002 in what were some of the greenest wickets in the last 15 years, he was new at the time against a high quality seam attack in their own conditions, and Sehwag was not the only batsmen to fail on that tour (from both sides). Then Sehwag toured NZ a second time in 09 at his absolute peak, and instead of struggling against swing or seam he simply got out trying to over dominate and hit spinners/seamers out of the attack.

Same thing goes for his England tours, his first tour was in 2002 where he played 6 innings averaging almost 40. Then he toured in 2011 after having surgery and because India were getting smashed they brought him in the team purely based on reputation, even though he barely had any power in his hands, quite naturally he didn't do very well and that's how he ended up averaging mid 20's in England.

Then comes SA, that's the only place where I would concede Sehwag actually struggled, particularly in 06, and then in 2011 he should have scored more than he did, because he would smash a few and then just get out.

Sehwag not scoring as much runs as he should have in those countries definitely goes against him, but the reason for not doing so is not simply because he had no feet or that he couldn't play seam or swing, but because the kind of player he was he would play the same way regardless of conditions.
 
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Zinzan

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This is just about the worst way to analyze Sehwag's career (or anyones career for that matter), and tells me you haven't really watched or followed his actual career at all. 10 and 9 innings are definitely not tiny but hardly big enough to really make a full fledged judgement on any player. Also just ftr he average almost 47 IN Australia, the 41 you are getting is both home and away average against Aus (which means he did better against Australia IN Aus rather than at home).

Sehwag first tourned NZ in 2002 in what were some of the greenest wickets in the last 15 years, he was new at the time against a high quality seam attack in their own conditions, and Sehwag was not the only batsmen to fail on that tour (from both sides). Then Sehwag toured NZ a second time in 09 at his absolute peak, and instead of struggling against swing or seam he simply got out trying to over dominate and hit spinners/seamers out of the attack.

Same thing goes for his England tours, his first tour was in 2002 where he played 6 innings averaging almost 40. Then he toured in 2011 after having surgery and because India were getting smashed they brought him in the team purely based on reputation, even though he barely had any power in his hands, quite naturally he didn't do very well and that's how he ended up averaging mid 20's in England.

Then comes SA, that's the only place where I would concede Sehwag actually struggled, particularly in 06, and then in 2011 he should have scored more than he did, because he would smash a few and then just get out.

Sehwag not scoring as much runs as he should have in those countries definitely goes against him, but the reason for not doing so is not simply because he had no feet or that he couldn't play seam or swing, but because the kind of player he was he would play the same way regardless of conditions.

Sorry, but you can't just ignore a correlation that strong with that sort of attempted acrobatics. ^

I'm not talking about a couple of innings here or there... Combined together he played 19 tests (& 34 innings) in SA, Eng & NZ for an abysmal average of 24. That's big sample set for a batsmen in anyone's language & it's an absolute horse**** record in 3 countries that are known to generally favour pace/swing/seam bowling ....regardless of which way you want to try to spin it or break it down.

There only one conclusion one could draw from that data, & without even watching him bat.... and for the added bonus for those of us who have seen him bat, it's no surprise at all he failed so badly there given his footwork was virtually non-existent and he relied primarily on a good eye where he could hit through the line of the ball..hence why he did well on some Aussie decks like Perth.

His record in those 3 countries contrast so so strongly with his performances anywhere else. Any a novice cricket fan only to watch the guy bat to know he'd struggle more than most in swing/seam conditions.
 

Gob

International Coach
As for Virender, there is a reason why his record is poor in Eng, NZ and SA. The ball moves around in those places and the bloke has concrete feet.You can argue till the cows come home but that's a fact. I really admire his ability to score 300 hundred runs in a day i really do and i think he is the most explosive batsman the world has seen and he is pretty great against spin but i honestly can't think of a more useless player against the moving ball out of those i would consider 'great'.
 

listento_me

U19 Captain
Well, it's pretty obvious by now that you would have to have your patriotic Indian blinkers on if you can't see Hayden > Sehwag.

In terms of Hayden himself, is he the greatest opener ever? I'd say no but does he do what I require him to do in the team? Most definitely and the best avg of the top 3 run getters in that position is nothing to be scoffed at.

So, let's move on, even though this has been a very interesting discussion. What about the exclusion of Lara and Ponting? Could I feasibly find a way for them into my team? Or no Waqar and Murali? Also post some of your own teams, that would be great!
 

OverratedSanity

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As for Virender, there is a reason why his record is poor in Eng, NZ and SA. The ball moves around in those places and the bloke has concrete feet.You can argue till the cows come home but that's a fact. I really admire his ability to score 300 hundred runs in a day i really do and i think he is the most explosive batsman the world has seen and he is pretty great against spin but i honestly can't think of a more useless player against the moving ball out of those i would consider 'great'.
Don't know why Contra is arguing against this. He genuinely did suck balls against swing.
 

TestMatch

U19 Cricketer
My all time test XI:

Cook
Greenidge
Lara
Ponting
Viv
Sanga
Marshall/McGrath
Ambrose
Wasim
Steyn
Warne

My ODI XI:

Lara
Tendulkar
Kohli
Viv
ABDV
Gilchrist
Marshall
Garner
McGrath
Ambrose
Warne
 

listento_me

U19 Captain
My all time test XI:

Cook
Greenidge
Lara
Ponting
Viv
Sanga
Marshall/McGrath
Ambrose
Wasim
Steyn
Warne

My ODI XI:

Lara
Tendulkar
Kohli
Viv
ABDV
Gilchrist
Marshall
Garner
McGrath
Ambrose
Warne
very interesting teams. No Bradman? Any particular reason for that?

I'm happy Cook makes it in, he truly is a great test batsman. I feel the bowling is a bit long, especially without a certified allrounder, although Akram could more than hold his own.

I can totally get behind the ODI XI, although Murali should probably be in there instead of Warne, who was a lesser ODI bowler. And of course, Was and Waqar should have shout with Garner does.
 

TestMatch

U19 Cricketer
very interesting teams. No Bradman? Any particular reason for that?

I'm happy Cook makes it in, he truly is a great test batsman. I feel the bowling is a bit long, especially without a certified allrounder, although Akram could more than hold his own.

I can totally get behind the ODI XI, although Murali should probably be in there instead of Warne, who was a lesser ODI bowler. And of course, Was and Waqar should have shout with Garner does.
I tend to limit myself to players from the mid 1960s onwards. So no Bradman, no Ws etc. My rationalization is that the game's changed too much.

Even then you're forced to make tough choices, in my case dropping guys like Sobers and Graeme Pollock. I also chose Gilchrist over Bevan and Dhoni.

Fair point on Murali. He was more economical in ODIs. I think I'm drawn toward more flashy personalities.
 

Gob

International Coach
Tests

Gavaskar
Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Warne
Hadlee
Warne
Marshall
McGrath

ODErs

Gilchrist
Tendulkar
Richards
Kohli
DeVilliers
Dhoni
Symonds
Pollock
Wasim
Lee
Muralidaran
 

Gob

International Coach
Tests

Gavaskar
Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Warne
Hadlee
Warne
Marshall
McGrath

ODErs

Gilchrist
Tendulkar
Richards
Kohli
DeVilliers
Dhoni
Symonds
Pollock
Wasim
Lee
Muralidaran
two Warnes?
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
My all time test XI:

Cook
Greenidge
Lara
Ponting
Viv
Sanga
Marshall/McGrath
Ambrose
Wasim
Steyn
Warne

My ODI XI:

Lara
Tendulkar
Kohli
Viv
ABDV
Gilchrist
Marshall
Garner
McGrath
Ambrose
Warne
Fix that test top six pls. With that top six it has to be:

Cook
Greenidge
Ponting
Lara
Richards
Sanga

Hurts me seeing Sanga at 6 where he doesn't belong but oh well.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Gilchrist
Tendulkar
Richards
Kohli
DeVilliers
Dhoni
Symonds
Pollock
Wasim
Lee
Muralidaran
I like this, but I never know about two keepers. If I was gonna open with Gilchrist I'd rather select someone like Ponting over Dhoni for the fielding aspect. Think Kohli probably is a must now. Lee a good inclusion that you don't see often.

I do like the idea of having Lara and Tendulkar opening in an ATG ODI team

Tendulkar
Lara
Richards
Kohli
DeVilliers
Symonds
Dhoni +
Wasim
Garner
Murali
McGrath

Asking for 10 overs out of Symonds might be too much?
 

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