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My All Time Test and ODI XI

Red

Red

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I looked into Hayden's record at depth a while back and it's safe to say he struggled against really good quicks. The middle period of his career coincided with a lull time of pace bowlers on opposition teams, and he cashed in (which is fine, and he should). He was found out early in his career and towards the end though. And he was nowhere to be found in England 2005, which I'll always mark him harshly for.

Great player, but a FTB. And I'd have all of Hobbs, Hutton, Sutcliffe, Morris, Trumper, Lawry, Simpson, Greenidge, Haynes, Boycott and Gavaskar comfortably ahead of him as ATG openers. He's a tier below with guys like Langer, Slater, Taylor, Gooch etc. Good company to be in, but not quite elite.
 
anil1405

anil1405

International Captain
Would Graeme Smith rank among other ATG openers or is he that sort of guy who fits right in between the likes of ATG's & Hayden?
 
TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

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good sides, except Gilchrist at no. 7 in ODIs is a waste, he never really batted there much. If he's not going to open you might as well pick Dhoni who's more experienced in that position.

also interesting to see how underrated Hayden is by some in here, and how overrated Graeme Smith is
 
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TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

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Red Hill said:
I looked into Hayden's record at depth a while back and it's safe to say he struggled against really good quicks. The middle period of his career coincided with a lull time of pace bowlers on opposition teams, and he cashed in (which is fine, and he should). He was found out early in his career and towards the end though. And he was nowhere to be found in England 2005, which I'll always mark him harshly for.

Great player, but a FTB. And I'd have all of Hobbs, Hutton, Sutcliffe, Morris, Trumper, Lawry, Simpson, Greenidge, Haynes, Boycott and Gavaskar comfortably ahead of him as ATG openers. He's a tier below with guys like Langer, Slater, Taylor, Gooch etc. Good company to be in, but not quite elite.
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Some interesting points, though it sounded at first glance that you're suggesting Hayden's lulls at the start and end of his career are due to the bowling he was facing rather than just where his batting was at at those times, which would be bizarre, if that was your suggestion.

I'll have to take your word on the "struggled against really good quicks", because other than the 2005 Ashes I can't really think of anything. He certainly didn't have any trouble against South Africa who would have had the best non-Aus quicks around that time I would have thought, and made a comfortable ton against the World XI which had a decent attack, funnily enough.

You could very well have a point that the opposition bowling wasn't as good during his peak, but the fact that he was still better than everyone else (except maybe Sehwag) nullifies any perceived slight on his record that this would indicate IMO
 
Red

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Clearly he was a good batsman, my point isnt to say he's a spud.

Go thru his career though and look at his big scores. You'll see he rarely faced great attacks in the middle period of his career. Ambrose and Walsh were gone. Wasim was gone and Waqar had waned. India had no one. England had no one until 2005. Steyn wasnt around yet.

As an opener, he didnt really deal with great pace attacks well, which is the primary job of an opener. He was good, but nowhere near the GOAT.
 
mr_mister

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Didn't he hit 125 in his early days against Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop? not to be scoffed at
 
Red

Red

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Nup. He never made a ton against Ambrose.

His first test against WIs went:

5 - c Hooper b Ambrose
0 - b Ambrose

Second test had no Ambrose and he made a ton.

Third test Ambrose was back and got him again twice- for a duck and then for 47.
 
morgieb

morgieb

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And ftr that 47 was a better innings than the 125 apparently. The 125 was apparently an innings where "none of his runs came off the middle of the bat" (or something along those lines) whereas the 47 was on a complete minefield.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
morgieb said:
And ftr that 47 was a better innings than the 125 apparently. The 125 was apparently an innings where "none of his runs came off the middle of the bat" (or something along those lines) whereas the 47 was on a complete minefield.
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I saw the entirety of that 125. One of the scratchiest hundreds ever. Haydos was dropped at least 4 times. Not his fault, nor is it his problem but if there ever was a lucky 100, that would be it.
 
Red

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Slifer said:
I saw the entirety of that 125. One of the scratchiest hundreds ever. Haydos was dropped at least 4 times. Not his fault, nor is it his problem but if there ever was a lucky 100, that would be it.
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Hayden was a great player of spin. His record in India was very good.

Felt he was far better in that scenario than he was against high quality pace. If you were selecting a team to play in India he'd be a good shout as an opener.
 
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