Forum Wide Tier List Project Interest Check

[Daemon]

I think the best method would be to use common sense

 

[Red]

If Tendulkar is an A, then GChappell is DEFINITELY an A

 

[Brian Lara]

if we include first class that also includes tests and puts huge question marks of Hick, Ramprakash and Bevan who have ridic awesome FC records but crappy Test records

Yeah, I would prefer to rank people on purely test performance personally.

If Tendulkar is an A, then GChappell is DEFINITELY an A

I also don't think there is much between Tendulkar and Chappell personally, but I know most people consider Tendulkar the greater player of the 2 once you factor in longevity as well as peak performance and importance to their respective team.

 

[Red]

if we include first class that also includes tests and puts huge question marks of Hick, Ramprakash and Bevan who have ridic awesome FC records but crappy Test records

These guys couldn't step up into the elite level. All of them therefore must be ranked less than Imran and the likes.

 

[mr_mister]

well I'd say Hick's batting record can still rival Imrans

but I agree on the other 2



Also weird someone was rating Imran over Botham as a test batsman, (think gave one a C+ and one a C). Botham did have 14 test tons, Imran still feels to me like a bowler who learnt to bat very handily along the way

 

[jimmy101]

If we're only rating players on their Test performance then I guess Grace doesn't deserve an A+. But if First Class records also end up being considered (which personally I think they should), then I'd just like to throw down a few quick comments about the man.

He was the first batsman to fully conquer overarm bowling with an array of previously unseen shots that he invented. Such shots included the forward defensive shot, in which he introduced the concept of keeping bat & pad close together & keeping the front elbow high. He also pioneered the art of stepping out of the crease to drive spin bowlers. When he began, he was the only batsman of his time who could play both off the front foot and the back foot. WG could also carefully place his shots, as well as hit with great power, whilst, again, the other batsmen of his time were known to be able to do only one or the other. KS Ranji called him "the bible of batsmanship" & said that "the theory of modern batting is in all essentials the result of W. G.'s thinking and working on the game".

Grace's technique & introductions to the game had an effect not just on Ranji, but on each and every other great batsman that followed him, including Bradman. Without him & his drawing capabilities, cricket mightn't ever have been considered a global sport played by millions & could very well have just remained a park game, played mainly by the gentry & would have probably decayed along with the rest of Victorian society. Let's not forget that a lot of his runs were "all run" too & his FC batting average (39.55) eclipses anyone else's during that time, much like Bradman's average soars above everyone else's.

But yeah, if it's Test match records only, then Grace doesn't deserve such a high mark. I don't mean to sound like a huge WG fanboy, cause I'm not, it's just that the guy literally invented the basic formula of modern batsmanship, played for almost forever & popularized the game in both England and the colonies immensely.

 

[marc71178]

These guys couldn't step up into the elite level. All of them therefore must be ranked less than Imran and the likes.

What a load of bollocks.

 

[Brian Lara]

These guys couldn't step up into the elite level. All of them therefore must be ranked less than Imran and the likes.

I agree with this comment to a degree, but Ramprakash at first class level was an incredible batsman. I would say far the superior to I. Khan. But factoring his performance at the highest level, he would have to come down a couple of pegs.

well I'd say Hick's batting record can still rival Imrans

but I agree on the other 2



Also weird someone was rating Imran over Botham as a test batsman, (think gave one a C+ and one a C). Botham did have 14 test tons, Imran still feels to me like a bowler who learnt to bat very handily along the way

Yeah sorry, I didn't really give it that much thought, I was merely indicating vaguely the caliber of batsmen that would be in that range.

Who do you guys think deserve to be on the A tier underneath Bradman? If we start getting a common consensus on names, I will start adding them to the OP.

 

[Brian Lara]

If we're only rating players on their Test performance then I guess Grace doesn't deserve an A+. But if First Class records also end up being considered (which personally I think they should), then I'd just like to throw down a few quick comments about the man.

He was the first batsman to fully conquer overarm bowling with an array of previously unseen shots that he invented. Such shots included the forward defensive shot, in which he introduced the concept of keeping bat & pad close together & keeping the front elbow high. He also pioneered the art of stepping out of the crease to drive spin bowlers. When he began, he was the only batsman of his time who could play both off the front foot and the back foot. WG could also carefully place his shots, as well as hit with great power, whilst, again, the other batsmen of his time were known to be able to do only one or the other. KS Ranji called him "the bible of batsmanship" & said that "the theory of modern batting is in all essentials the result of W. G.'s thinking and working on the game".

Grace's technique & introductions to the game had an effect not just on Ranji, but on each and every other great batsman that followed him, including Bradman. Without him & his drawing capabilities, cricket mightn't ever have been considered a global sport played by millions & could very well have just remained a park game, played mainly by the gentry & would have probably decayed along with the rest of Victorian society. Let's not forget that a lot of his runs were "all run" too & his FC batting average (39.55) eclipses anyone else's during that time, much like Bradman's average soars above everyone else's.

But yeah, if it's Test match records only, then Grace doesn't deserve such a high mark. I don't mean to sound like a huge WG fanboy, cause I'm not, it's just that the guy literally invented the basic formula of modern batsmanship, played for almost forever & popularized the game in both England and the colonies immensely.

Well, then perhaps we should incorporate First class performance into our list as well, but I feel the main focus should be on test performance as it is the highest level of the game. So for example, Ramprakash was a fantastic first class player, but his test performance should reduce his overall position on this list, but on the other hand, we shouldn't completely disregard his first class performances because it did highlight how good a batsman he was so it should also factor in on his ranking.

 

[Brian Lara]

A+:

Sir DONALD BRADMAN

A:

Sir GARFIELD SOBERS
Sir VIVIAN RICHARDS
Sir JACK HOBBS
SACHIN TENDULKAR
BRIAN LARA
Sir LEONARD HUTTON
GEORGE HEADLEY
SUNIL GAVASKAR
WALLY HAMMOND
GRAEME POLLOCK

A-:

B+:

B:

B-:

C+:

C:

C-:

D+:

D:

D-:

E+:

E:

E-:

F:

Thoughts so far. Additions or objections for the A tier welcome and the continued discussion of where Grace should be placed!

 

[morgieb]

Chappell an A-grade candidate IMO. Perhaps Sutcliffe as well?

Be interesting to see where most people would put Barry Richards.

 

[NUFAN]

For large portions of Ponting's career he was an A batsman too. The longevity discussion has been done a fair bit on here, but a great who is past his best but plays on because he is still deserving a spot in his countries XI, shouldn't really be a negative once you get well into a career. I mean from 1/1/1999 to 31/12/2008 Ponting scored 9488 runs @ 61.61 in 105 Tests, scoring 35 100s. That's A class.

 

[Brian Lara]

Chappell an A-grade candidate IMO. Perhaps Sutcliffe as well?

Be interesting to see where most people would put Barry Richards.

I would be inclined to agree on Greg Chappell. To be honest, you have mentioned 3 of the 4 batsmen I think are closest to joining the A tier alongside Kumar Sangakkara.

I would like to start an individual voting on these five guys:
Greg Chappell
Barry Richards
Herbert Sutcliffe
Kumar Sangakkara
WG Grace

The top 4 are guys that I think are right on the border of A/A-.
For Chappell, I could see him in A personally as I see him as every bit as good a batsman as Pollock for example.

Barry Richards on ability should be A as well, I don't know if people will count his limited test career against him, but I would be on board for A too.

Herbert Sutcliffe I would prefer in A-. I personally think there is a tiny separation between him and Hobbs, Hutton and Sunny. I know he is one half of the greatest opening pairing in history, but he is almost always considered the number 2 to Hobbs, so I just see him as more of an A- personally, albeit the very top of A-.

Sangakkara's record and performances speak for themselves and I would be more than happy seeing him in the exclusive company in A, but want to get more opinions on him.

WG Grace I'm unsure of. He was such a pioneer of the game and so dominant in his time that he could be in A+ with Bradman. Having said that, he played in such an early era when the game was in its infancy to such a degree that I can't help but feel he wouldn't be able to dominate every era to the same extent that I'm sure Bradman would. Add to that his limited test matches and how his performance was slightly inferior at test level and I would also push for Grace at A. Looking forward to hearing everyone's opinions on such a wildcard though!

 

[Brian Lara]

For large portions of Ponting's career he was an A batsman too. The longevity discussion has been done a fair bit on here, but a great who is past his best but plays on because he is still deserving a spot in his countries XI, shouldn't really be a negative once you get well into a career. I mean from 1/1/1999 to 31/12/2008 Ponting scored 9488 runs @ 61.61 in 105 Tests, scoring 35 100s. That's A class.

For sure Ponting is right on the border of A/A-. The question is how exclusive we want to make A tier. Does Ponting for example deserve to be more in line with guys like Hobbs/Tendulkar/Richards/Sobers, or more in line with guys like Kallis/Border/Trumper/Dravid who will likely be in A-??

Like I said, we could make an A* tier exclusively for Bradman and split A into A+ and A, but I'm not sure if its necessary or not.

 

[mr_mister]

Sutcliffe is so hard. I swear the fact his last name doesn't start with H is a actually a factor in him not being rated alongside Hobbs, Hammond and Hutton.

Obviously there's more to it, he was apparently pretty suspect against true pace(or just didn't experience much of it at test level so we can't know for sure)


but like... his raw test stats are probably the second best after the Don when you think about it. Headley and Pollock's average but for a way longer period

 

[morgieb]

Sutcliffe is so hard. I swear the fact his last name doesn't start with H is a actually a factor in him not being rated alongside Hobbs, Hammond and Hutton.

Obviously there's more to it, he was apparently pretty suspect against true pace(or just didn't experience much of it at test level so we can't know for sure)


but like... his raw test stats are probably the second best after the Don when you think about it. Headley and Pollock's average but for a way longer period

Headley and Sutcliffe actually had similar career lengths, just that West Indies barely played any Tests.

I actually wonder what Pollock's average would've been if it wasn't for Apartheid. Given he was only 26 when South Africa were banned from playing Tests, it probably would've increased given that a batsman peak is usually around 26-33.

 

[Brian Lara]

Sutcliffe is so hard. I swear the fact his last name doesn't start with H is a actually a factor in him not being rated alongside Hobbs, Hammond and Hutton.

Obviously there's more to it, he was apparently pretty suspect against true pace(or just didn't experience much of it at test level so we can't know for sure)


but like... his raw test stats are probably the second best after the Don when you think about it. Headley and Pollock's average but for a way longer period

I don't know if this is a factor for many people, but I know his strike rate was painfully slow so that probably counts against him in some circles. I mean, its all about where we draw the line with this tier. The way I'm looking at A is that the batsmen at A have a legitimate claim that they could be in an AGT XI. So with that in mind, there are a lot of guys right on the edge of A.

Headley and Sutcliffe actually had similar career lengths, just that West Indies barely played any Tests.

I actually wonder what Pollock's average would've been if it wasn't for Apartheid. Given he was only 26 when South Africa were banned from playing Tests, it probably would've increased given that a batsman peak is usually around 26-33.

I honestly think if it weren't for apartheid, Pollock would probably be considered the second greatest batsmen of all time, or certainly in every top 5 discussion going.

 

[jimmy101]

Trumper & Ranji are both a decent shout for an A.

 

[Brian Lara]

Trumper & Ranji are both a decent shout for an A.

I'll add them to the list for consideration. What we need now is a vote on the following guys for A or A-:



I personally see it like so:

G. Chappell
B. Richards
WG Grace
Kumar Sangakkara
H. Sutcliffe
R. Ponting
Ranji
V. Trumper

I personally see it like this:

G. Chappell
B. Richards
WG Grace
Kumar Sangakkara

H. Sutcliffe
R. Ponting
Ranji
V. Trumper

Top 4 in A, bottom four in A-

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Trumper & Ranji are both a decent shout for an A.

Absolutely and it's disappointing they don't get more kudos.

As for Ponting, I think he's probably an A-. He was incredible in MOST conditions. His value overall with his fielding is AFAIC more than most others at the top level of batsmen.

Headley is the second best of that era for me. He was adaptable and with no one else in his team worth talking about he showed his quality. His FC record, in England is no small matter either. A

Grace second best ever A