Quotas to be introduced for Proteas

[Marius]

Elitism and provincialism is a problem in many different countries... that does not mean that it is right and it should be discouraged.

And SA has the additional social and economic issues that must be overcome; that will drive this dynamic. White players are not being pushed out there are just not at the front of the queue. If you look at the SA 'A' and youth/developing teams it is obvious they are picking a large number of potentials who would be considered quotas, but along with this is still the most talented of the white players. The biggest players SA will lose are those looking for better prospects else where in the world because of other SA issues. And the 2nd tier players that have not shown great potential at this stage (not that they could not be great) and are right at the back.

Of course, I never said it wasn't.

But the vast majority of your professional cricketers in South Africa will come from private schools or state schools which have excellent facilities and coaches. This is unlikely to change in the near future, unless cricket becomes a true mass participation sport as it is in India.

 

[91Jmay]

I think comparing the two is absolutely ridiculous. England has a non-white population of around 10%, and the cricket team has been representative of that fact for a while now.

The ECB is absolutely right to launch schemes aimed at getting more Asian kids into cricket, as clearly there have been racist barriers stopping the pipeline of Asian talent coming through. You can see that in the last few England U19 teams, which have had 2/3 Asian lads in both.

 

[91Jmay]

Just as with the South African players that attended state schools (Cook, De Villiers, Du Plessis, De Kock, Amla for example) these state schools probably have pretty good sporting facilities. None of them would have come from a school where there aren't cricket facilities and at least some formal coaching - I would imagine it is fairly similar with the English guys who have come from state schools.

Ben Stokes has told stories about his school not having balls to practise with and Chris Woakes/Moeen's schools didn't play cricket at all.

Moeen's school is extremely deprived, having lived in the area it is well known for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaanse_Hoër_Seunskool

That is also AB and Faf's high school. Is that really a state school? Seems like you are skating by on a technicality if so.

 

[StephenZA]

Ben Stokes has told stories about his school not having balls to practise with and Chris Woakes/Moeen's schools didn't play cricket at all.

Moeen's school is extremely deprived, having lived in the area it is well known for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaanse_Hoër_Seunskool

That is also AB and Faf's high school. Is that really a state school? Seems like you are skating by on a technicality if so.

Affies is a well known sports school... even if not private.

The problem in these schools is demographics. Which is similarly in the economics of the country. In all honesty the problem we are talking about are far larger than cricket and we are discussing the window dressing. Its very difficult to speak about quotas in SA without looking at the bigger picture.

 

[Marius]

Ben Stokes has told stories about his school not having balls to practise with and Chris Woakes/Moeen's schools didn't play cricket at all.

Moeen's school is extremely deprived, having lived in the area it is well known for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaanse_Hoër_Seunskool

That is also AB and Faf's high school. Is that really a state school? Seems like you are skating by on a technicality if so.

Literally in the first line of that article it says it is a state school.

It's got excellent sporting and other facilities but it's still a state school. Steyn and Morkel went to bog standard state schools too, and Vernon Philander's school is in one of the poorest areas in Cape Town.

But I do think we're talking past each other here. In England and South Africa most of your cricketers will come from fairly privileged backgrounds and schools, and there will be a handful of players that come from poorer schools or communities. I think in both countries there is a struggle to keep the game alive, and as part of this anyone who wants to play cricket should have the opportunity, not just those from wealthier backgrounds.

 

[91Jmay]

The school has an Astro-Turf, mini Astro, gymnasium and library. The school has three boarding-houses, the largest being House Frank Le Roux (named after the first headmaster), and a few school- and memorial buildings. The school has three computer classrooms. The school hall is famed for its acoustic quality and has held numerous musical and theatrical acts and shows

I went to a state school in England which was pretty good and we had one football pitch to play all sport on

 

[Shady Slim]

school cricket in aus is surprisingly small (it's still a thing but we rarely have schools with pitches), club cricket is the big thing here.

best players in schools play rep cricket for the district, the only actual cricket competition between schools is a knockout comp

 

[wpdavid]

Speaking as a teacher and parent, I can honestly say that the provision of cricket in non-selective state schools in the UK is generally somewhere between dire and non-existent.

Looking at the club where my son plays his club cricket, once they reach secondary school age, their development is badly stunted unless they end up in a private school or a selective state school, and it's a real problem. Regrettably, there's a certain amount of complacency about this, with no real effort being made to recruit and develop players from the non-selective schools, unless parents are able to train the individual players themselves or find and pay for personal coaching. Interestingly, I could name several clubs who simply don't have sides at my son's age group (U14 this year), maybe because that age group are playing loads of cricket at private and selective schools, therefore don't feel inclined to sign up to club cricket as well.

Part of the problem is that cricket can be a very difficult sport to come into by your teens, as your involvement can be very brief if you're up against people who have played since they were at primary school.

Clubs should be making a real effort to address these issues, but I get the impression that most simply can't be bothered so long as they are attracting enough players from the elite schools to keep them financially secure.

 

[Adders]

Its very difficult to speak about quotas in SA without looking at the bigger picture.

This is how I see it. It's very easy for a lot of people here (that are not from SA) to say how ridiculous the quota's are, how it is cripling SA cricket and even as far as calling it racist selection.

I don't feel qualified to say one way or the other if the quota system is the right way to go or not, but i do understand that there is a lot more at stake here than the success of a cricket team.

 

[Marius]

This is how I see it. It's very easy for a lot of people here (that are not from SA) to say how ridiculous the quota's are, how it is cripling SA cricket and even as far as calling it racist selection.

I don't feel qualified to say one way or the other if the quota system is the right way to go or not, but i do understand that there is a lot more at stake here than the success of a cricket team.

There is no doubt that transformation is needed in certain segments of South African society, but I am not sure that brute force quotas are the way to go, especially for the Proteas. Quotas are demeaning for all players involved (much cleverer people than me have written on why this is the case).

And I don't think quotas are actually necessary - any first choice SA side will now - at most - have six white players. In the tri-series we beat Australia when there were only three whites in the side, so it's clear we are getting there naturally.

The problem is if we insist that there have to be two black African players in every starting XI - that means that Bavuma and Rabada basically have to play every Test, Rabada is probably going to have to play every single game South Africa plays.

I actually think quotas at a lower level are not a terrible idea, and they do help to help some people accept reality. I just disagree with the idea that racial bean counting should be how we select our national cricket side.

And in the last few years, the most 'transformed' domestic side was the Lions - and it was one of the most successful. At the same time, in this year's Super Rugby the Lions (also from Johannesburg like their cricketing counterparts) are also the most successful South African side, and are by far, the least transformed. Not sure what we can read into that but it's fairly interesting.

 

[Gnske]

I agree, if they're going to win they absolutely must do it under the most unconvincing facade ever put up.

 

[wpdavid]

This is how I see it. It's very easy for a lot of people here (that are not from SA) to say how ridiculous the quotas are, how it is cripling SA cricket and even as far as calling it racist selection.

I don't feel qualified to say one way or the other if the quota system is the right way to go or not, but i do understand that there is a lot more at stake here than the success of a cricket team.

I suspect you're very wise.

fwiw my take on the matter is that quotas shouldn't be necessary by some point, and that point may even be now. But I can see why they've been seen as a necessary evil for a while, simply judging by some of the comments on CW over the years. Thinking back to 2004/2005 and to a lesser extent 2010/11, the scapegoating of the non-white players by some posters was, to my mind, shocking. And if those attitudes were in any way representative of thinking within the SA cricket set-up, then little wonder that some people think that the matter of non-white involvement needed to be enforced.

Of course, it didn't help that SA lost in 2004-05 and only drew in 2010/11 thanks to the final test. I remember being equally indignant about England losing the 1982/3 Ashes without the presence of Gooch and Emburey due to their 'rebel' tour of SA a few months previously. Nowadays I see those days very differently.

 

[Furball]

According to this article nearly 40% of recreational cricketers in the UK are non-white while only 6% of professional cricketers in England are non-white.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/apr/13/england-cricket-problem-non-white-asian

Would be interesting to see similar stats for SA.

I think what we can say with some certainty is that people who aren't white still struggle to get to the top of the system in England and South Africa.

I wonder how much of that is down to cultural pressures from British Asian families for their sons to get 'proper' jobs. To use a cultural sterotype their dads/grandfathers didn't come over here and spend 8 days a week working in their shop/takeaway/restaurant for their sons to piss around on a cricket field or football pitch when they should be doing something like law or medicine.

 

[91Jmay]

Yeah there is a mixture of that + English county's liking what they know and knowing what they like.

 

[Daemon]

I wonder how much of that is down to cultural pressures from British Asian families for their sons to get 'proper' jobs. To use a cultural sterotype their dads/grandfathers didn't come over here and spend 8 days a week working in their shop/takeaway/restaurant for their sons to piss around on a cricket field or football pitch when they should be doing something like law or medicine.

I didn't read the article but could the numbers also be skewed because of the number of South Asian expats that play cricket? They're obviously there primarily to work and not play professional cricket.

 

[Furball]

I didn't read the article but could the numbers also be skewed because of the number of South Asian expats that play cricket? They're obviously there primarily to work and not play professional cricket.

Nah I'd reckon the vast majority of the Asian population that play cricket here are British (a sentence that makes no sense but you know what I mean).

 

[Daemon]

Nah I'd reckon the vast majority of the Asian population that play cricket here are British (a sentence that makes no sense but you know what I mean).

itstl. Is it like that in Australia as well, for those of you who live there?

 

[Furball]

itstl. Is it like that in Australia as well, for those of you who live there?

Admittedly this is based off very anectodal evidence, but the vast majority of Asians I've known are 2nd or 3rd generation as opposed to being over here for study/work etc.

 

[Shady Slim]

yeah there aren't many full blooded asian first gen migrants that play cricket here either

i'd like to ask, for Marius, stphbdnsn and for anyone else (i wrote that from memory so forgive me if it's wrong) from safrica, what are the opinions on the black safricans on quotas?

 

[TheJediBrah]

itstl. Is it like that in Australia as well, for those of you who live there?

No I'd say it's the opposite. Ignoring the plethora of poorly paid overseas cricketers from India/SL/Pakistan who just come over for a season of club cricket, the majority of Asian-heritage players are still either born overseas or 1st gen.

The best way I can think of backing this up is that the vast majority all have "Indian-ish accents" rather than Australian ones.

Also depends with grade of cricket. Higher grades of cricket there are more Australian born-and-raised Asian cricketers, lower grades of club cricket is full of overseas-born asian players.