Quotas to be introduced for Proteas

[StephenZA]

If only four whites can play for the Proteas, it's a bit of a problem.

That means only four out of De Villiers, Faf, Steyn, Morkel, QDK, Cook, and Elgar, can get a gig. And that's not including guys on the fringes, like Harmer and Abbott.

As Shady Slim says, work has to be done at the grassroots, but that's far too hard - that's why we are having this top down transformation, which really doesn't help anyone.

Don't think Harmer will get a look in with Piedt and Shamsi around. I think Morkel is probably out for Rabada. That's why Cook is also under threat... however I can see them accepting 6 players in the national team unless there is an obvious replacement. If you look at the SA 'A' side it is pretty well balanced and nobody undeserving is really their.

The grassroots is a problem, particularly at government level. Think CSA could do more. But even if government really wanted to there is much higher priorities for the money in government (ignoring corruption and incompetence). Reality, people and organizations with the ability and finances need to do more at grassroots level and stop just window dressing. And I`m not just talking cricket. Until there is a clear and conscious drive by all business to make efforts on all fronts in SA it is going to keep rearing its ugly head everywhere. But this is starting to get into a whole other debate and politics.

Ultimately, I think their is enough talent in SA to survive this.

 

[Marius]

speaking as a person with little idea of safrican politics any more than four or five quota players is equity gone horrendously wrong

surely they could so a better job at grassroots levels and domestic levels: arbitrarily picking a player of colour due to their colour for the international team helps literally nobody, and if there are six players of colour that should be picked for the national side then that's not because of quotas, as much as firdose moonda's confirmation bias says it is

At the national club champs even the teams that play there have to have two players of colour (it might be one, can't remember). My club went to club champs last season and there were no players of colour who helped win the league. But if we didn't have a POC we would be fined and not get any points for a win. Apart from fining a non-profit cricket club for failing to reach social engineering targets it meant that we had to poach a black guy from another club and had to leave someone out of the squad who had played all season and helped win the title. It's pathetic.

And CSA does nothing at grassroots, there's no support for that.

 

[StephenZA]

even having 1 quota player is still too much.

It's nothing short of racial discrimination

I would also liked there to have not been 50 years of apartheid and 8+ years of Zuma... but we live in the real world. In all honesty things could have been a lot worse in SA...

 

[TheJediBrah]

I would also liked there to have not been 50 years of apartheid and 8+ years of Zuma... but we live in the real world. In all honesty things could have been a lot worse in SA...

I fail to see the relevance

unless you're suggesting that quotas in sport will magically make everything ok or that if SA don't have quotas in cricket some evil entity will time travel back and make apartheid etc. worse than it ever was as punishment

 

[Marius]

Don't think Harmer will get a look in with Piedt and Shamsi around. I think Morkel is probably out for Rabada. That's why Cook is also under threat... however I can see them accepting 6 players in the national team unless there is an obvious replacement. If you look at the SA 'A' side it is pretty well balanced and nobody undeserving is really their.

The grassroots is a problem, particularly at government level. Think CSA could do more. But even if government really wanted to there is much higher priorities for the money in government (ignoring corruption and incompetence). Reality, people and organizations with the ability and finances need to do more at grassroots level and stop just window dressing. And I`m not just talking cricket. Until there is a clear and conscious drive by all business to make efforts on all fronts in SA it is going to keep rearing its ugly head everywhere. But this is starting to get into a whole other debate and politics.

Ultimately, I think their is enough talent in SA to survive this.

Agree about Harmer, just pointing it out.

I think there's enough talent but this is a terrible way of doing this.

 

[StephenZA]

I fail to see the relevance

unless you're suggesting that quotas in sport will magically make everything ok or that if SA don't have quotas in cricket some evil entity will time travel back and make apartheid etc. worse than it ever was as punishment

Whatever people believe their is a reluctance to change things, people don`t like changing their behaving and the manner in which things have always been done... so sometimes change needs to be forced it is not nice and if implemented badly can cause unnecessary harm, but is sometimes required. The point is that the problems in SA will not disappear with out a great deal of effort and quotas are a reality of this... but this is going into heavy behind the scenes politics.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Whatever people believe their is a reluctance to change things, people don`t like changing their behaving and the manner in which things have always been done... so sometimes change needs to be forced it is not nice and if implemented badly can cause unnecessary harm, but is sometimes required. The point is that the problems in SA will not disappear with out a great deal of effort and quotas are a reality of this... but this is going into heavy behind the scenes politics.

I'm sure you're probably right, but from an outside perspective (and an ignorant one) it just looks completely backwards and idiotic.

 

[Marius]

Whatever people believe their is a reluctance to change things, people don`t like changing their behaving and the manner in which things have always been done... so sometimes change needs to be forced it is not nice and if implemented badly can cause unnecessary harm, but is sometimes required. The point is that the problems in SA will not disappear with out a great deal of effort and quotas are a reality of this... but this is going into heavy behind the scenes politics.

But how is quotas applied to the Proteas going to achieve change?

This isn't a quota being applied by the government, it's being applied by CSA itself. CSA is explicitly saying we have to ensure that there is a certain proportion of a particular racial group in the national cricket team. CSA is applying a quota to itself.

 

[StephenZA]

I'm sure you're probably right, but from an outside perspective (and an ignorant one) it just looks completely backwards and idiotic.

... the best thing to loosely equate it with from a world wide perspective is probably woman's liberation issues, yes we joke about it, and sometimes their is silly foolishness to it... but the reality is it has taken many generations (even after woman got the vote) for many cultures and behaviours in societies to accept the change of treating men and woman as equals and this is still argued about today. In SA their is deep distrust and even sometimes hatred over racial issues... but these changes need to occur even quicker or else the country will implode, so you can fight against it or accept it and try make the transition easier. ......And that is the end of my politics for today.

 

[StephenZA]

But how is quotas applied to the Proteas going to achieve change?

This isn't a quota being applied by the government, it's being applied by CSA itself. CSA is explicitly saying we have to ensure that there is a certain proportion of a particular racial group in the national cricket team. CSA is applying a quota to itself.

CSA is getting a huge pressure from government... just like all big business is.

There is political motivation... but it is also an underlying show of force... change must occur. And not just window dressing.

 

[Groundking]

The Racist regimes strikes again, yet the west still does nothing about it, despite decades of pressure to (rightly) end Apartheid, absolutely disgraceful, and teams should just stop playing SA until they get rid of any and all quotas and just pick the best available players.

 

[TheJediBrah]

... the best thing to loosely equate it with from a world wide perspective is probably woman's liberation issues, yes we joke about it, and sometimes their is silly foolishness to it... but the reality is it has taken many generations (even after woman got the vote) for many cultures and behaviours in societies to accept the change of treating men and woman as equals and this is still argued about today. In SA their is deep distrust and even sometimes hatred over racial issues... but these changes need to occur even quicker or else the country will implode, so you can fight against it or accept it and try make the transition easier. ......And that is the end of my politics for today.

Interesting analogy, but that would be like saying companies/departments need to hire more women, even if they are significantly and noticeably worse at their jobs than male counterparts who are not being hired, just because they are women.

Which would be just as bad.

 

[Stefan9]

Political interference should never be allowed in sport. S.A. should be kicked out for this.

 

[Marius]

CSA is getting a huge pressure from government... just like all big business is.

There is political motivation... but it is also an underlying show of force... change must occur. And not just window dressing.

And brute-force quotas don't work, and are damaging in the long run.

Any Proteas team picked on merit is going to have between five and eight POCs anyway, so this is really a stupid decision by CSA. And the government should stop worrying about racial bean counting at the top level and start working at the bottom. You want more black CEOs, doctors, actuaries? Make sure schools are good and that there are funds available to let all deserving people go to university. You want more black Proteas? Build facilities in disadvantaged areas and make sure cricket facilities exist in township schools.

The focus on quotas is typical window-dressing by this government.

 

[Marius]

Interesting analogy, but that would be like saying companies/departments need to hire more women, even if they are significantly and noticeably worse at their jobs than male counterparts who are not being hired, just because they are women.

Which would be just as bad.

There's nothing wrong with affirmative action, as long as it is applied properly.

Affirmative action means if two candidates are equal, you pick the one from the disadvnatged group (black, female, etc). So, what should happen is, the selectors have to choose between, for example, Rabada and Abbott, and in this hypothetical example there's no daylight between the two, they should pick Rabada. However, if yoiu have to choose between Omphile Ramela and Stephen Cook it's a no-brainer, but because of quotas you have to pick Ramela. That is the problem.

 

[Groundking]

There's nothing wrong with affirmative action, as long as it is applied properly.

Affirmative action means if two candidates are equal, you pick the one from the disadvnatged group (black, female, etc). So, what should happen is, the selectors have to choose between, for example, Rabada and Abbott, and in this hypothetical example there's no daylight between the two, they should pick Rabada. However, if yoiu have to choose between Omphile Ramela and Stephen Cook it's a no-brainer, but because of quotas you have to pick Ramela. That is the problem.

Oh come on, when do you ever have two equal candidates for anything?

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Disappointing.

 

[Daemon]

Oh come on, when do you ever have two equal candidates for anything?

murali v warne

tendulkar v richards

jono v burgey

 

[Groundking]

murali v warne

tendulkar v richards

jono v burgey

There are arguments for both, and just looking at starts completely disregards what their personalities are like, and how that'd best work with the teams chemistry.

 

[StephenZA]

And brute-force quotas don't work, and are damaging in the long run.

Any Proteas team picked on merit is going to have between five and eight POCs anyway, so this is really a stupid decision by CSA. And the government should stop worrying about racial bean counting at the top level and start working at the bottom. You want more black CEOs, doctors, actuaries? Make sure schools are good and that there are funds available to let all deserving people go to university. You want more black Proteas? Build facilities in disadvantaged areas and make sure cricket facilities exist in township schools.

The focus on quotas is typical window-dressing by this government.

I agree with you here that government is not playing their part... but their is also an attitude problem amongst the businesses not playing a significant enough part. They think that government must just produce people for them to hire, but they need to make an active contribution by hiring and training staff who maybe did not have the privileges afforded everybody. A lot of business use window dressing as well rather than actively helping. And this goes hand in hand with culture and attitude change.

There's nothing wrong with affirmative action, as long as it is applied properly.

Affirmative action means if two candidates are equal, you pick the one from the disadvnatged group (black, female, etc). So, what should happen is, the selectors have to choose between, for example, Rabada and Abbott, and in this hypothetical example there's no daylight between the two, they should pick Rabada. However, if yoiu have to choose between Omphile Ramela and Stephen Cook it's a no-brainer, but because of quotas you have to pick Ramela. That is the problem.

But Ramela has not been picked for SA... but he has been given every opportunity at SA 'A' level that maybe a white player would not get...

Don`t get me wrong I`m not saying this is totally fair or right, but it is far more nuanced than just "racial discrimination is wrong"... their is a whole political and social aspect to this as well, that people like to conveniently forget. But people tend to have these knee jerk reactions to the situation which does not help either. This whole story is that their is going to be direct targets, we don't know what those targets are yet and we don`t know how they will be implemented.