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Thread: Why Isn't Mark Butcher in the ODI side?

  1. #31
    World Traveller Craig's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mr Mxyzptlk
    Why? Chris Gayle doesn't deserve to be number 1?

    He's scored 1969 runs in his last 40 ODIs at 53.21 per innings with 7 hundreds and 10 fifties against various different opponents, including Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and India. In that time he's been dismissed only twice without scoring and has 3 scores over 140, two of which were 150+ unbeaten.

    In his last 40 innings that he's crossed 10 he's gone on to score at an average of 66.32.

    Added to all this, in this time he's taken 41 wickets at 29.78 with 2x4w and 1x5w and a best haul of 5/46 against Australia. His economy rate has been 4.79 and his SR 37.2.

    Give the man some credit!
    So perhaps 2nd or 3rd best all-rounder in the world?
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  2. #32
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Originally posted by marc71178
    Well excuse me, but last time I checked Test Cricket is International Cricket.

    And Cricket at that level requires mental strengths as well as talent - Butcher has shown he has that by playing Tests for so long, or are you going to deny that and say it's all based on FC average?

    And Butcher's sub-40 First Class average doesn't suggets to me that he should be able to cope with Test Cricket.
    Butcher's First-Class average excluding Tests is comfortably over 40. And don't try the old trick of "that stat doesn't exist" - just because First-Class averages are generally shown with all games inclusive, doesn't mean you can't filter out the ones that don't apply to the case.
    Can you remember the last time Butcher had a bad county season? I can't. 1996 it might have been, don't remember back that far in domestic terms.
    Yes, you're right - Test-cricket is international cricket, but it bears no real resemblence to one-day international cricket. The two game forms are very different and there have been countless examples of players who can do one form and not the other. IMO Butcher is one and the selectors have done very well to avoid the complications caused in the case of, say, Lee (ie "he's out of form" - "no he's not - he's coming back into form" - "no, look, he's out of form..." etc). Not that I am suddenly saying I think Lee's a good one-day bowler, just stepping for a moment into the shoes of those who judge everything on his stats.
    The mental ability to cope with what Test-cricket throws at you is far less important to judging whether someone is good for the one-day international game than their basic ability at one-day cricket, attested by their List-A Limited-overs average.
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  3. #33
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    I still fail to see why he isn't in the ODI side.
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  4. #34
    State Vice-Captain Armadillo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mr Mxyzptlk
    Why? Chris Gayle doesn't deserve to be number 1?

    He's scored 1969 runs in his last 40 ODIs at 53.21 per innings with 7 hundreds and 10 fifties against various different opponents, including Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and India. In that time he's been dismissed only twice without scoring and has 3 scores over 140, two of which were 150+ unbeaten.

    In his last 40 innings that he's crossed 10 he's gone on to score at an average of 66.32.

    Added to all this, in this time he's taken 41 wickets at 29.78 with 2x4w and 1x5w and a best haul of 5/46 against Australia. His economy rate has been 4.79 and his SR 37.2.

    Give the man some credit!
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  5. #35
    Rik
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    Originally posted by Craig
    So perhaps 2nd or 3rd best all-rounder in the world?
    Better than Flintoff, so I'd guess he's the best...even if he takes a lot of his wickets due more to batsman error. I remember the ODI series in England in 2000, England played him appauling, he bowled quite decently but they gifted him 2 wickets and didn't knock him into the gaps. During that series he just kept on getting wickets, but with a few exceptions, they were gifted to him. How's his bowling now?
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  6. #36
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    Originally posted by Richard
    The mental ability to cope with what Test-cricket throws at you is far less important to judging whether someone is good for the one-day international game than their basic ability at one-day cricket, attested by their List-A Limited-overs average.
    As shown by Vaughan's inability to kick on in ODIs despite his Test record. In List A OD cricket he averages 27.12 with 1 100 and 29 50s from 213 games. In ODIs he averages 25.94 from 39 matches with 6 50s and a highest score of 83, and bats at 3 and was given the captaincy. Insanity. A useless captain and number 3 batsman who can't kick on...brilliant, the kind of player England already have too many of.

  7. #37
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Mr Mxyzptlk's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rik
    Better than Flintoff, so I'd guess he's the best...even if he takes a lot of his wickets due more to batsman error. I remember the ODI series in England in 2000, England played him appauling, he bowled quite decently but they gifted him 2 wickets and didn't knock him into the gaps. During that series he just kept on getting wickets, but with a few exceptions, they were gifted to him. How's his bowling now?
    These days much of Gayle's success if because of his accuracy and variation of pace. He also has a great yorker, which is very handy late in ODIs. A big attribute of his game too is that he bowls his overs very quickly.
    Sreesanth said, "Next ball he was beaten and I said, 'is this the King Charles Lara? Who is this impostor, moving around nervously? I should have kept my mouth shut for the next ball - mind you, it was a length ball - Lara just pulled it over the church beyond the boundary! He is a true legend."

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  8. #38
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Gayle in that NatWest Series bowled better than any of the other pacers IMO.
    All right, he'll hardly ever take wickets with good balls (hence he's not much use in Tests) but he is surprisingly accurate and I'm always surprised when people label him a part-time bowler. IMO he's better than that. Not only accurate, but very quick through the air (as well as quick through the overs).
    I'd rate him second to Kallis amongst ODI all-rounders, and Kallis' record with the ball of late isn't exactly impressive either.

  9. #39
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    With Wasim and Waqar not around, im tempted to say that Gayle is the best death bowler in international cricket (due to his lack of pace probably)... Ive been most impressed with him at the closing stages recently...
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  10. #40
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Mr Mxyzptlk's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Richard
    Gayle in that NatWest Series bowled better than any of the other pacers IMO.
    All right, he'll hardly ever take wickets with good balls (hence he's not much use in Tests) but he is surprisingly accurate and I'm always surprised when people label him a part-time bowler. IMO he's better than that. Not only accurate, but very quick through the air (as well as quick through the overs).
    I'd rate him second to Kallis amongst ODI all-rounders, and Kallis' record with the ball of late isn't exactly impressive either.
    I think Gayle is as good as many finger spinner in the world in Test cricket. He doesn't turn it a lot usually, but that's because he doesn't flight it or release it slow enough to allow it to turn. I'm not saying that he's potent, but then few fingerspinners are (except in turning conditions). What I'm saying is that he's underused in Tests IMO much in the same way that most people talk Vaughan to be.

  11. #41
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    Originally posted by Langeveldt
    With Wasim and Waqar not around, im tempted to say that Gayle is the best death bowler in international cricket (due to his lack of pace probably)... Ive been most impressed with him at the closing stages recently...
    Interesting statement. He's one of the better ones, but I'm not sure he's the best. Top 5 for my money.

    I remember when he opened the bowling once for WI early in his ODI career and did a decent job too.

  12. #42
    Rik
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    Originally posted by Mr Mxyzptlk
    I think Gayle is as good as many finger spinner in the world in Test cricket. He doesn't turn it a lot usually, but that's because he doesn't flight it or release it slow enough to allow it to turn. I'm not saying that he's potent, but then few fingerspinners are (except in turning conditions). What I'm saying is that he's underused in Tests IMO much in the same way that most people talk Vaughan to be.
    To class Gayle as a spinner would be rather odd, the most turn I've seen him get is forwards and very slow.

    Vaughan's a useful offie but nowhere near Test Standard, just a useful part-timer. But then, Giles isn't Test Standard...

  13. #43
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    The funny thing about Vaughans bowling is that it was actually better than then specialist spinner a few tests. Namely, Richard Dawson. But Vaughan wasnt used at all!

    As despite the fact that Gayle doesnt spin the ball, he is still a spinner..... he couldnt be called anything else, and there are other spinners just like him.
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  14. #44
    Rik
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    Originally posted by Prince EWS
    The funny thing about Vaughans bowling is that it was actually better than then specialist spinner a few tests. Namely, Richard Dawson. But Vaughan wasnt used at all!

    As despite the fact that Gayle doesnt spin the ball, he is still a spinner..... he couldnt be called anything else, and there are other spinners just like him.
    Ever seen Fleming bowl? He's not a spinner, but he's slower than most! Gayle's...errm...more slow medium from what I've seen, doesn't spin it at all and bowls off one pace, just like Hooper...but he could turn it a bit.

    Dawson was useless, but Vaughan wasn't bowled enough to see how good or bad he was. He did get Sachin with a beuty and outshone Giles yet again though...

  15. #45
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    I have nver seen Fleming bowl. Wish I had though... is he at least accurate?

    And Gayle does roll his finger over the ball like an off spinner. And I have seen him turn it four or five while playing against Australia in WI (the same series he got his BB). I think he could turn it more if he bowled slower, which he occasiionally does.

    I guess I never really questioned Gayle's classification. He is called an offspinner on cricinfo, by all the TV stations, the radio stations etc. so I just accepted it.

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