Why Isn't Mark Butcher in the ODI side?

[Richard]

Well, he still possesses it, but often doesnt care! He gets carried away when he is in good form, and depite often knowing (or I think he does) know the ball is way outside off, he still plays at it.

Still a good player when he feels like having a big innings. It really does seem like sometimes he goes out there in a test to get 50......

He's never made many 50s without being let-off first.

 

[Armadillo]

Very impressively - he's number 1 at the moment!

Chris Gayle's no. 1?.I think people are starting to doubt PwC 's system, I am.

 

[Richard]

Well, maybe he has improved?

Just a suggestion.

Maybe he has.
Normally takes more than one season to demonstrate that, though.

 

[Richard]

If thy've never tried butcher in OD then they might as well, what is to stop him playing really well

They've never tried Steve Stubbings or Mark Chilton in ODIs, they might as well, what is to stop them playing really well?
The fact that their domestic averages are poor is the answer. And in Butcher's case too. Despite the fact that all three could be better at domestic level than their averages suggest.

 

[Armadillo]

Has Steve Stubbings played a test match?

 

[marc71178]

They've never tried Steve Stubbings or Mark Chilton in ODIs, they might as well, what is to stop them playing really well?

Nothing, but seeing as Butcher has already shown he can cope with International Cricket, that gives him a boost.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Chris Gayle's no. 1?.I think people are starting to doubt PwC 's system, I am.

Why? Chris Gayle doesn't deserve to be number 1?

He's scored 1969 runs in his last 40 ODIs at 53.21 per innings with 7 hundreds and 10 fifties against various different opponents, including Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and India. In that time he's been dismissed only twice without scoring and has 3 scores over 140, two of which were 150+ unbeaten.

In his last 40 innings that he's crossed 10 he's gone on to score at an average of 66.32.

Added to all this, in this time he's taken 41 wickets at 29.78 with 2x4w and 1x5w and a best haul of 5/46 against Australia. His economy rate has been 4.79 and his SR 37.2.

Give the man some credit!

 

[Richard]

Nothing, but seeing as Butcher has already shown he can cope with International Cricket, that gives him a boost.

No, he's shown he can cope with Test-cricket - as his First-Class average suggests he should be able to.

 

[Richard]

Has Steve Stubbings played a test match?

No, never got anywhere near.
Never been consistent in First-Class cricket, though he has had his moments.
IMO he's been unlucky to play as little as he has in the last couple of years in the Championship. He had a near-fairytale end to last season, and hopefully will start this season at the top of the Championship order and in the middle in the League.

 

[marc71178]

No, he's shown he can cope with Test-cricket - as his First-Class average suggests he should be able to.

Well excuse me, but last time I checked Test Cricket is International Cricket.

And Cricket at that level requires mental strengths as well as talent - Butcher has shown he has that by playing Tests for so long, or are you going to deny that and say it's all based on FC average?

And Butcher's sub-40 First Class average doesn't suggets to me that he should be able to cope with Test Cricket.

 

[Craig]

Why? Chris Gayle doesn't deserve to be number 1?

He's scored 1969 runs in his last 40 ODIs at 53.21 per innings with 7 hundreds and 10 fifties against various different opponents, including Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and India. In that time he's been dismissed only twice without scoring and has 3 scores over 140, two of which were 150+ unbeaten.

In his last 40 innings that he's crossed 10 he's gone on to score at an average of 66.32.

Added to all this, in this time he's taken 41 wickets at 29.78 with 2x4w and 1x5w and a best haul of 5/46 against Australia. His economy rate has been 4.79 and his SR 37.2.

Give the man some credit!

So perhaps 2nd or 3rd best all-rounder in the world?

 

[Richard]

Well excuse me, but last time I checked Test Cricket is International Cricket.

And Cricket at that level requires mental strengths as well as talent - Butcher has shown he has that by playing Tests for so long, or are you going to deny that and say it's all based on FC average?

And Butcher's sub-40 First Class average doesn't suggets to me that he should be able to cope with Test Cricket.

Butcher's First-Class average excluding Tests is comfortably over 40. And don't try the old trick of "that stat doesn't exist" - just because First-Class averages are generally shown with all games inclusive, doesn't mean you can't filter out the ones that don't apply to the case.
Can you remember the last time Butcher had a bad county season? I can't. 1996 it might have been, don't remember back that far in domestic terms.
Yes, you're right - Test-cricket is international cricket, but it bears no real resemblence to one-day international cricket. The two game forms are very different and there have been countless examples of players who can do one form and not the other. IMO Butcher is one and the selectors have done very well to avoid the complications caused in the case of, say, Lee (ie "he's out of form" - "no he's not - he's coming back into form" - "no, look, he's out of form..." etc). Not that I am suddenly saying I think Lee's a good one-day bowler, just stepping for a moment into the shoes of those who judge everything on his stats.
The mental ability to cope with what Test-cricket throws at you is far less important to judging whether someone is good for the one-day international game than their basic ability at one-day cricket, attested by their List-A Limited-overs average.

 

[Tom Halsey]

I still fail to see why he isn't in the ODI side.

 

[Armadillo]

Why? Chris Gayle doesn't deserve to be number 1?

He's scored 1969 runs in his last 40 ODIs at 53.21 per innings with 7 hundreds and 10 fifties against various different opponents, including Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and India. In that time he's been dismissed only twice without scoring and has 3 scores over 140, two of which were 150+ unbeaten.

In his last 40 innings that he's crossed 10 he's gone on to score at an average of 66.32.

Added to all this, in this time he's taken 41 wickets at 29.78 with 2x4w and 1x5w and a best haul of 5/46 against Australia. His economy rate has been 4.79 and his SR 37.2.

Give the man some credit!

Sorry Mr Windies! :wow:

 

[Rik]

So perhaps 2nd or 3rd best all-rounder in the world?

Better than Flintoff, so I'd guess he's the best...even if he takes a lot of his wickets due more to batsman error. I remember the ODI series in England in 2000, England played him appauling, he bowled quite decently but they gifted him 2 wickets and didn't knock him into the gaps. During that series he just kept on getting wickets, but with a few exceptions, they were gifted to him. How's his bowling now?

 

[Rik]

The mental ability to cope with what Test-cricket throws at you is far less important to judging whether someone is good for the one-day international game than their basic ability at one-day cricket, attested by their List-A Limited-overs average.

As shown by Vaughan's inability to kick on in ODIs despite his Test record. In List A OD cricket he averages 27.12 with 1 100 and 29 50s from 213 games. In ODIs he averages 25.94 from 39 matches with 6 50s and a highest score of 83, and bats at 3 and was given the captaincy. Insanity. A useless captain and number 3 batsman who can't kick on...brilliant, the kind of player England already have too many of.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Better than Flintoff, so I'd guess he's the best...even if he takes a lot of his wickets due more to batsman error. I remember the ODI series in England in 2000, England played him appauling, he bowled quite decently but they gifted him 2 wickets and didn't knock him into the gaps. During that series he just kept on getting wickets, but with a few exceptions, they were gifted to him. How's his bowling now?

These days much of Gayle's success if because of his accuracy and variation of pace. He also has a great yorker, which is very handy late in ODIs. A big attribute of his game too is that he bowls his overs very quickly.

 

[Richard]

Gayle in that NatWest Series bowled better than any of the other pacers IMO.
All right, he'll hardly ever take wickets with good balls (hence he's not much use in Tests) but he is surprisingly accurate and I'm always surprised when people label him a part-time bowler. IMO he's better than that. Not only accurate, but very quick through the air (as well as quick through the overs).
I'd rate him second to Kallis amongst ODI all-rounders, and Kallis' record with the ball of late isn't exactly impressive either.

 

[Langeveldt]

With Wasim and Waqar not around, im tempted to say that Gayle is the best death bowler in international cricket (due to his lack of pace probably)... Ive been most impressed with him at the closing stages recently...

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Gayle in that NatWest Series bowled better than any of the other pacers IMO.
All right, he'll hardly ever take wickets with good balls (hence he's not much use in Tests) but he is surprisingly accurate and I'm always surprised when people label him a part-time bowler. IMO he's better than that. Not only accurate, but very quick through the air (as well as quick through the overs).
I'd rate him second to Kallis amongst ODI all-rounders, and Kallis' record with the ball of late isn't exactly impressive either.

I think Gayle is as good as many finger spinner in the world in Test cricket. He doesn't turn it a lot usually, but that's because he doesn't flight it or release it slow enough to allow it to turn. I'm not saying that he's potent, but then few fingerspinners are (except in turning conditions). What I'm saying is that he's underused in Tests IMO much in the same way that most people talk Vaughan to be.