Best ODI Captain

[Mr. P]

Ponting has an easy job that IMO any fool could do.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Richard man, if you had ANY idea you wouldn't be saying that.

I am not saying Ponting is the best of the listed captains, I put Fleming as my best, but really. Did you watch any of the recent VB series? His captaincy was superb, all the right decisions at the right times. I'm sure many people could back this up.

My list of those captains:

1. Fleming (Magnificent, one of the best I have seen)
2. Ponting
3. Ganguly (He's good, but IMO he doesn't use his bowlers very well)
4. Lara (Just not as good as the forementioned.)

 

[Eclipse]

an average in the mid 30s for an NZ batsmen is good,because the pitches here aren't that great most (if not all)of the time.

A mid 30 average here is like a high 40 or low 50 average in india,and pakistan,etc (where there is good batting pitches)

True the pitches make a diffrence but not by that much not in international cricket anyway.

They probably do in domestic FC cricket were it seem's almost all batsman in India have a 40+ FC avrage many of which I dont think would get a game for an Australian domestic team.

(Before somone says anything ok not all Indian batsman have 40+ FC avrages but there is a high proportion of them)

 

[masterblaster]

A lot of Indian Fast Bowlers are now averaging 20-25 with the ball which is really a good effort, considering the lack of assistance these young Indian domestic fast bowlers get.

Eclipse im sure Vinod Kambli, Yuvraj Singh, Sadagopan Ramesh, Mohammad Kaif, Hemang Badani, Gautam Gambhir, Akash Chopra, Sridharan Sriram, Rohan Gavaskar, Dinesh Mongia, SS Das, Virender Sehwag and so on would do very well in the Australian domestic competition.

 

[cbuts]

i beleive flemming recently bbecame the longest serving odi and test captins.

career averages are very deceptive. a player can change so much over time. flemming is the perfect example. his average is very low due to years of mediocraty. in the last 24 months he is averaging around 74 with the bat. 4 centuries. the rest of his career, 30ish with the bat 2 centuries. when judging players i like to look at the last calander year or two.

 

[Craig]

harris and larsen are nothing greater than ordinary

Ah no. Larsen was any thing but ordinary. You name a better bowler then Larsen (in terms of a tight economy) at his pace? Spinners are not included.

 

[tooextracool]

If you consider Harris and Larsen nothing greater than ordinary that explains the problem.
Larsen and Harris were both outstanding one-day bowlers. Far, far better than anything India have produced for a long, long time. Both had good tournaments, and Allott was even better.
Astle and Twose both have pretty good records, and Twose especially was one of the best one-day players in The World for a time, that World Cup inclusive.
Fleetingly I rated him up with Bevan, but of course it was only a temporary thing.
Horne, McMillan and the out-of-nick Fleming aren't in the same class as Ramesh, Ganguly, Dravid, Tendulkar, Azharruddin and Jadeja, of course not, but the fact that India's bowlers mostly had a poor tournament and New Zealand's performed up to their potential for the most part swung matters their way.
New Zealand's batting for the most part did enough to keep them in the contest, even if most were ultimately disappointing. Twose and Cairns were easily the best, but Cairns wasn't at his ultimate with the ball.

you have no idea of what you are talking about.Twose was one of the greatest odi batsmen in the world at his peak,and Astle has more than 5000 odi runs,and for an NZ player to have that is amazing,what with the pitches.He also has 13 centuries and 30-something fifties.If this isn't enough to be considered a great batsman,then what is?

nathan astle averaged 8.77 in that wc.i am not denying that astle is a good batsman but surely he isnt even close to being great. u are at a misconception about the word great because a great batsman is one who is a matchwinner on his own like javed miandad ,sachin tendulkar, bevan etc would u put astle in that league just because he has 5000 runs???there are more than 200 other ppl who have got 5000 odi runs with many more centuries and fifties yet many of them are not considered to be "great"!!ganguly,david boon,roshan mahanama,ijaz ahmad,cronje all had more than 5000 runs, would u classify any of those names as great???
twose on the other hand had a great world cup but if he had been more consistent throughout his career instead of his 2 year peak i would rate him as a great batsman. unfortunately he retired at a time when he was really going well and he was too inconsistent at the start of his career.

Ah no. Larsen was any thing but ordinary. You name a better bowler then Larsen (in terms of a tight economy) at his pace? Spinners are not included.

adam dale has an economy rate of 3.68 while larsen's is 3.76!!allen mullally too had an economy of 3.73

my point is that harris and larsen would never win a match for ur team and thats what i was looking for in the new zealand team- a few match winners

 

[Swervy]

there are more than 200 other ppl who have got 5000 odi runs with many more centuries and fifties yet many of them are not considered to be "great"!!ganguly,david boon,roshan mahanama,ijaz ahmad,cronje all had more than 5000 runs, would u classify any of those names as great???

without wanting to be pedantic...Astle is ranked 35th in career ODI runs...not quite sure where 200 other people with over 5000 runs has come from there though..more like maybe 40..maybe you were only kidding

 

[tooextracool]

without wanting to be pedantic...Astle is ranked 35th in career ODI runs...not quite sure where 200 other people with over 5000 runs has come from there though..more like maybe 40..maybe you were only kidding

i was going for 50...typo error

 

[Richard]

If you can back that up with an explanation I'd be very interested. The young bowlers these days don't know how to use the new ball and that's largely because they played second fiddle to Ambi and Walsh then were tossed into the limelight suddenly. Case in point, Merv Dillon.

I'd hardly call Dillon young, but I know what you mean.
The thing I'm talking about is: how many bowlers currently playing played much with Ambrose and Walsh? Dillon did quite a bit, but otherwise?
Edwards, Taylor, Lawson, Sanford (not that you've ever said you rate him ), these type, never played with them.
Collymore played 1 or 2 Tests with them, something like that.
The like of McLean, Rose, King, Benjamin, those who were playing in the post-Bishop era, are nowhere near the team any more.
Anyway, you don't have to bowl with the new-ball in a Test-match (or ODI) to learn how to use it. Ambrose and Walsh only played for Leewards and Jamaica, now. There are other places to learn; better ones, indeed.

 

[Richard]

nathan astle averaged 8.77 in that wc.i am not denying that astle is a good batsman but surely he isnt even close to being great. u are at a misconception about the word great because a great batsman is one who is a matchwinner on his own like javed miandad ,sachin tendulkar, bevan etc would u put astle in that league just because he has 5000 runs???there are more than 200 other ppl who have got 5000 odi runs with many more centuries and fifties yet many of them are not considered to be "great"!!ganguly,david boon,roshan mahanama,ijaz ahmad,cronje all had more than 5000 runs, would u classify any of those names as great???
twose on the other hand had a great world cup but if he had been more consistent throughout his career instead of his 2 year peak i would rate him as a great batsman. unfortunately he retired at a time when he was really going well and he was too inconsistent at the start of his career.
adam dale has an economy rate of 3.68 while larsen's is 3.76!!allen mullally too had an economy of 3.73
my point is that harris and larsen would never win a match for ur team and thats what i was looking for in the new zealand team- a few match winners

Larsen and Harris played large parts in the winning of many matches for New Zealand. In ODIs economy is more important than wickets.
I'd certainly classify Ganguly and Boon as ODI greats, and Ijaz, Roshan and Cronje not far from.
Astle and Twose are\were both very, very good ODI batsmen and were part of a very good side in the 1999 World Cup.

 

[marc71178]

Astle has more than 5000 odi runs,and for an NZ player to have that is amazing,what with the pitches.He also has 13 centuries and 30-something fifties.If this isn't enough to be considered a great batsman,then what is?

A really strange set of figures for Astle.

His runs seems to come more from playing a large number of games (career average of 34.40 is nowhere near "great" status IMO)

Then I broke it down further.

Amazingly at home, his average is 46.49.
Away it is 33.04.
The shocker is the neutral grounds - 22.61.

Still I would never call him a Great.

 

[Craig]

For New Zealand yes. Not in terms of international cricket.

 

[tooextracool]

Larsen and Harris played large parts in the winning of many matches for New Zealand. In ODIs economy is more important than wickets.
I'd certainly classify Ganguly and Boon as ODI greats, and Ijaz, Roshan and Cronje not far from.
Astle and Twose are\were both very, very good ODI batsmen and were part of a very good side in the 1999 World Cup.

anybody who thinks roshan mahanam and ijaz as not far from gr8s must be out of his mind.ganguly is nothing but a flat pitch bully and boon was good but never great( just because he had a good 87 wc that doesnt mean hes great)
the nz side was nothing better than a bunch of in form players who stephen fleming used to their greatest potential.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I'd certainly classify Ganguly and Boon as ODI greats, and Ijaz, Roshan and Cronje not far from.

Roshan Mahanama? He averaged 29podd!
Ijaz Ahmed averaged 32podd.
Boon averaged an OK 37podd, but hardly great.
Hansie was a different type of player from the rest. He averaged 38podd batting and a useful 34podd bowling. Still not great though.

 

[Richard]

Well I'm ashamed to admit I never looked at Mahanama or Ijaz Ahmed's records.
Nowhere near as good as I thought.
Amazing that they played so many games with such poor averages. And it makes it all the more stunning that poor Salim Elahi, with an extremely impressive average, can't make the position Ijaz held down for God knows how long his own.
Especially given Pakistan aren't exactly overflowing with ODI class batsmen ATM.

 

[BlackCap_Fan]

without wanting to be pedantic...Astle is ranked 35th in career ODI runs...not quite sure where 200 other people with over 5000 runs has come from there though..more like maybe 40..maybe you were only kidding

hahaha.

Tooextracool,can you named those other 200 people?

 

[Tim]

Well, Fleming must be the greatest Captain ever if people reckon he is the sole reason why NZ have done so well in cricket in recent times.

NZ were close to outstanding in the test series in India with the bat, funnily enough Fleming (in 3 innings) only averaged 13.

 

[Eclipse]

Eclipse im sure Vinod Kambli, Yuvraj Singh, Sadagopan Ramesh, Mohammad Kaif, Hemang Badani, Gautam Gambhir, Akash Chopra, Sridharan Sriram, Rohan Gavaskar, Dinesh Mongia, SS Das, Virender Sehwag and so on would do very well in the Australian domestic competition.

They would all get a game but there is no way they would avrage as high as they do in India.

I dont think some of them would do that well to be honest but probably more to do with ajustment's to conditions than actual talent.

 

[BlackCap_Fan]

Anyone who thinks Ponting is the best captain is either a Biased Aussie,or an Aussie.

Fleming is the best captain in the world,end of story.

 

[Richard]

They would all get a game but there is no way they would avrage as high as they do in India.

I dont think some of them would do that well to be honest but probably more to do with ajustment's to conditions than actual talent.

While I doubt they'd average in the 50s as many of them do (some even in the 60s :O and Sriram still can't get a look in in the Tests) I'm perfectly confident that they'd all average 40-45. The standard of bowling and pitch in Australian domestic cricket is very much in the batsmen's favour. I don't think there's any difference in ability between the batsmen Sangrah named than the like of Katich, Hussey, Maher, Love, Hodge, Hussey, Blewett, Cox (though he's had a sadly disappointing season), Law, Di Venuto, etc.
As Dravid, Laxman, Tendulkar (eventually) and Ganguly proved last summer, adjusting to the conditions isn't that difficult; there's no extreme more sideways movement in Australia than India (indeed it could be argued there's less, because there's less turn in the wickets) and the myth that extra bounce causes Indian batsmen problems has hopefully been exploded for the time being (I'm not stupid enough to believe it's once-and-for-all). Good batsmen are good batsmen on high bounce and low bounce pitches; it's the consistency (or lack of) and sideways-movement that troubles good batsmen.
And there are plenty of good batsmen in India and Australia ATM.