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Thread: ODI GOAT at cricket.com.au

  1. #31
    International Coach G.I.Joe's Avatar
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    The mods need to get cracking and slap a forum atmosphere here.
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  2. #32
    Dan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Hill View Post
    I think there's some truth to this and sometimes it's easy to also underestimate great (GOAT) ODI players who were perhaps not as successful in tests. Brett Lee and Shane Watson come to mind for Australia in particular. Very top echelon ODI players in their respective roles but not near GOAT in tests.



    I don't think Brett Lee is the GOAT, and I don't have him in my ATG ODI team, but I struggle to see why he isn't top 5.

    FWIW I agree absolutely with your top 3, (Garner, McGrath and Wasim). Garner for his ridiculous un-hittablilty, McGrath for just consistent brilliance. How many times did I miss the first 20 overs of an ODI and come in and see McGrath with ridic figures like 8-4-2-14? Wasim for his old ball skills and economy. After that I think you could mount a case that Lee was as good as, or better than most of the other bowlers you've listed (Bond is an interesting one, such a shame…)
    Yeah, I agree with the bolded. All I'm saying is that it isn't clear cut. I think there's about 5 bowlers (Lee inclusive) who are genuine contenders for the #4 and #5 rankings; Lee isn't definitively Top 5.

    I have Garner, McGrath, Wasim and Bond as locks for my top four, ftr.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Yeah, I agree with the bolded. All I'm saying is that it isn't clear cut. I think there's about 5 bowlers (Lee inclusive) who are genuine contenders for the #4 and #5 rankings; Lee isn't definitively Top 5.
    I don't think anyone would disagree with that

  4. #34
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend honestbharani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJediBrah View Post
    Uh, no it's not, at all. Here:



    You're inferring something that was never even implied. It's a simple fact that it's harder to maintain an outstanding record over a longer period of time.

    That's all that viriya said.

    You shouldn't put words in people's mouths just so you can disagree with them. It's really weird and you do it all the time.


    Does not mean more matches esp. when comparing different eras. And that is where viriya's point is wrong, which I pointed out before you butted in with no idea of anything, per usual.


    And you should not post biased crap all the time either and yet you do. So stop putting words into my mouth first and mind your own business.
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    In the end, I think it's so utterly, incomprehensibly boring. There is so much context behind each innings of cricket that dissecting statistics into these small samples is just worthless. No-one has ever been faced with the same situation in which they come out to bat as someone else. Ever.
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  5. #35
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Yeah, I agree with the bolded. All I'm saying is that it isn't clear cut. I think there's about 5 bowlers (Lee inclusive) who are genuine contenders for the #4 and #5 rankings; Lee isn't definitively Top 5.

    I have Garner, McGrath, Wasim and Bond as locks for my top four, ftr.
    TBH we probably agree. I'd have trouble splitting Bond and Lee though, so for me Lee could well be #4. The other player I'd mention is Allan Donald, so my top five would be Garner, Wasim, McGrath, plus two of Lee, Bond or Donald. Can't really split them for any particular reason.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by honestbharani View Post
    Does not mean more matches esp. when comparing different eras. And that is where viriya's point is wrong, which I pointed out before you butted in with no idea of anything, per usual.


    And you should not post biased crap all the time either and yet you do. So stop putting words into my mouth first and mind your own business.
    The least you can do is be mature and sensible when I'm trying to help you here mate. All I was trying to do was assure you that there's no need to be getting upset because no one is disagreeing with you. There's no argument for you here, there's no need to invent one.

  7. #37
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Maybe you could stop bitching and actually discuss the thread topic.
    TheJediBrah and honestbharani like this.

  8. #38
    I can't believe I ate the whole thing NZTailender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Hill View Post
    TBH we probably agree. I'd have trouble splitting Bond and Lee though, so for me Lee could well be #4. The other player I'd mention is Allan Donald, so my top five would be Garner, Wasim, McGrath, plus two of Lee, Bond or Donald. Can't really split them for any particular reason.
    Lee played what, nearly 3 times as many games as Bond though? As much as Bond is a potential GOAT the fact he only played 80 odd games counts against him a little - even though that's about as many as Garner played iirc.

    And to answer my own question, Starc and Bond are the only ones on Dan's list to have a <30 SR, like Lee.

    Akram and McGrath would be locks for the attack, as would Murali, with an A/R for the 5th (Watson, Hadlee, Khan, whomever). Lee and Bond are apples and oranges for mine...would come down to pitch conditions or whim.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    Lee played what, nearly 3 times as many games as Bond though? As much as Bond is a potential GOAT the fact he only played 80 odd games counts against him a little - even though that's about as many as Garner played iirc.

    And to answer my own question, Starc and Bond are the only ones on Dan's list to have a <30 SR, like Lee.

    Akram and McGrath would be locks for the attack, as would Murali, with an A/R for the 5th (Watson, Hadlee, Khan, whomever). Lee and Bond are apples and oranges for mine...would come down to pitch conditions or whim.
    Absolutely, and it's impossible to know how he would have gone over a longer career. Perhaps his all-out style of bowling, physically speaking, was not only what made him as effective as he was but also what limited his career. Maybe he could have paced himself a bit more and avoided injury, but been a lot less effective. It wouldn't surprise me.

    How to factor this in to "how good" a bowler he was is, obviously, entirely subjective. Personally I think Bond is is overrated a bit by Australian's especially because he bowled so many ridiculously good spells against us, and it really does stick in the memory. The only other bowlers I can think of as having bowled such unplayable spells, with prodigious swing, pace & accuracy are Lee and James Anderson with the new ball at times.

  10. #40
    International Captain viriya's Avatar
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    Yea I think Bond was great but Lee clearly has the better record.

    If you took Lee's best ~80 inning period so it would be a fairer comparison:
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    He averages +0.5 with a strike rate -1.5 compared to Bond's career. Hard to split but Lee was arguably a better strike bowler even ignoring his longevity.
    Last edited by viriya; 24-04-2016 at 06:27 PM.
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  11. #41
    I can't believe I ate the whole thing NZTailender's Avatar
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    And IIRC bowled 5-10kph quicker in general

  12. #42
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    Yeah, I'm happy enough with Bond's ~80 games as a sufficient sample size. That being said, I admit that I'm a huge Bond fan, so I'm hardly coming from a position of complete objectivity. But yeah, that strike rate.

    Where does Starc rate? 2wpm, <20 average, <25 strike rate. Early days, sure, but even if this is his peak and he returns to normal statz for the rest of his career, it's one of the best peaks of all time, surely?

  13. #43
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend honestbharani's Avatar
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    Yeah... Starc can get the Bond argument even if his career is to be over in the next year or two. And I hope it isn't. His skills with the white ball are beyond belief. RCB would be running away with the IPL if he was also around.

  14. #44
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    so how about that ODI GOAT tournament hey
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  15. #45
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    Starc has actually been pretty good with injury over his career. It's been Pattinson and Cummins that are constantly out and people probably lump Starc in with them as "those young Australian quicks who are always injured".

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