England Squad Selection

[a massive zebra]

Are the England selectors right to select unreliable players who have not even proved themselves at county level, but have pace (Harmison, Jones etc), above slower bowlers who have proved themselves to be consistent reliable performers in that form of the game (Bicknell, Kirtley, Saggers etc)?

Kirtley and Bicknell did far better against South Africa than Harmison and co, but it was the latter who got selected for the winter tours. Saggers has been bowling well for 2 years and was not selected. It seems if you do well but are not that fast they drop you and if you get smacked but have pace they keep you in. Just not fair! :!(

Harmison and Jones do have pace but that alone is not enough to win you matches (eg Brett Lee, Mohammed Sami), and they are likely to be hit around the park.

Shoaib has been devastating recently but he is in a completly different league and generally the most effective pace bowlers are not the fastest but the most accurate (McGrath, Pollock etc).

 

[Swervy]

Are the England selectors right to select unreliable players who have not even proved themselves at county level, but have pace (Harmison, Jones etc), above slower bowlers who have proved themselves to be consistent reliable performers in that form of the game (Bicknell, Kirtley, Saggers etc)?

Kirtley and Bicknell did far better against South Africa than Harmison and co, but it was the latter who got selected for the winter tours. Saggers has been bowling well for 2 years and was not selected. It seems if you do well but are not that fast they drop you and if you get smacked but have pace they keep you in. Just not fair! :!(

Harmison and Jones do have pace but that alone is not enough to win you matches (eg Brett Lee, Mohammed Sami), and they are likely to be hit around the park.

Shoaib has been devastating recently but he is in a completly different league and generally the most effective pace bowlers are not the fastest but the most accurate (McGrath, Pollock etc).

I dont think you have to prove yourself at county level to justify a place in the England squad...it was something that happened a lot a while ago,and alot of players were simply getting ground down by relentless county cricket. If the potential is there, fast track the players through,and get them used to playing at international standard by they time they peak in their late 20's (or if batsman 30ish say).

Anderson who exploded on to the international scene, must be persisted with even though he will have bad days..coz he has learnt so much in the last year.....and he hasnt consistantly amazed people with his county performances..its just that people could see the potential which is so obviously there.

So i think stick with Harmison and Jones coz they are going to be a part of the future for England..less so than Kirtley is, and especially Bicknell (that would be a backward step so awful England would not deserve to win another test for 2 years).

Harmison has shown signs of improvement.and his good spells are starting to outnumber his bad ones.....just got to be patient with him

 

[Richard]

Anderson has taken plenty of wickets whenever he's played for Lancs.
As the numerous Pakistani and Sri Lankan players show pretty conclusively, fast-tracking simply doesn't work. The best two teams, Australia and South Africa, don't engage in such stupidity very often.
If Harmison is part of the future, it still looks pretty bleak at the moment. On absolutely no count whatsoever can your assertion about him be construed as true.
He may have got 4-33 against his name in his most recent Test spell (note, Test is taken as meaningful Test) but the last 5 innings-spells produced unspectacular results. Similarly, in Australia, 3 very, very poor spells were succeeded by 2 slightly better ones.
Harmison has been very fortunate in that his Test-career's most pivotal points have seen Bangladesh and Zimbabwe as the opponents. Each time, these poor batting sides have given his supporters the excuse to trot-out the "he's improving all the time" rubbish.
We'll see in the Caribbean and next summer. If West Indies bat like they can Harmison in his most recent state will not get good figures - that is a fact. Of course, Harmison may have improved (unlikely, but still possible) and WI may still manage to play poor strokes galore against him - so don't take stats as the be all and end all.

 

[a massive zebra]

Agree totally. Harmison's test bowling average in all matches excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe is 42. The sooner the England selectors realise that pace isn't everything, the better.

 

[Langeveldt]

Agree totally. Harmison's test bowling average in all matches excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe is 42. The sooner the England selectors realise that pace isn't everything, the better.

Thats a good spot there mate...

I feel Harmison is improving (he couldnt get much poorer though).. However I really fear for him in the west indies... the pitches out there are absolutely devoid of any life these days in my experience....

 

[Neil Pickup]

How come Harmison's average is better than the rest of the bowling attack in the games he's played then?

I agree 100% with the England squad to the WI.

 

[Richard]

Yep, I fully expect yet another hammering. :rolleyes:
Wonder how much longer they can keep making excuses?
Still, to be fair he's nowhere near as terrible as he was in Australia last winter. Not anywhere near Test calibre, still, but at least 2 balls an over don't go down leg almost as a matter of course.
Now they're just equally harmlessly wide of off. And, vitally, he still can't seam or cut the ball very well (and with an action and length like his, swing of either kind is going to be as rare as rare can be). So even if he does bowl where they've got to play it, good batsmen still don't have any trouble.

 

[Langeveldt]

Well he could start by sorting out his action... Ive never seen a guy with such an appaling action be a success....

Ditto Tino Best from the WI....

 

[Swervy]

you all may be right about harmison...i guess its make or break time with him.

My point about the fast tracking of younger players is based on the current system employed in English domestic cricket, where you have 16 4 day games, and god knows how many one dayers. This can grind a younger player into the ground. Why knock all life out of a young fast bowler before he gets to the test arena. harmison is still maybe 3 to 5 years away from what would normally be considered a fast bowlers peak time..i think it is good for england that he has visibly improved in the time he has played vs top international players. (Trust me, I too am completely amazed by his poor bowling sometimes as well)

Ideally, I would like to see no more than 10 first class games being played by each domestic team..and if possible a reduction in one day games..again maybe only 10 national league games,with the schedule structured around the international fixture list so that the international players can play in the county games (cant beat match practise).

 

[ReallyCrazy]

A massive zebra? hehehe

 

[Langeveldt]

you all may be right about harmison...i guess its make or break time with him.

My point about the fast tracking of younger players is based on the current system employed in English domestic cricket, where you have 16 4 day games, and god knows how many one dayers. This can grind a younger player into the ground. Why knock all life out of a young fast bowler before he gets to the test arena. harmison is still maybe 3 to 5 years away from what would normally be considered a fast bowlers peak time..i think it is good for england that he has visibly improved in the time he has played vs top international players. (Trust me, I too am completely amazed by his poor bowling sometimes as well)

Ideally, I would like to see no more than 10 first class games being played by each domestic team..and if possible a reduction in one day games..again maybe only 10 national league games,with the schedule structured around the international fixture list so that the international players can play in the county games (cant beat match practise).

That would be an idea, they have started to do similar things in South Africa... Unfortunatly there were disputes there, and deep set tradition will stop any of that kind of stuff happening in the UK....

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Well he could start by sorting out his action... Ive never seen a guy with such an appaling action be a success....

Ditto Tino Best from the WI....

Tino Best has, from all reports, sorted his action greatly from last year. I haven't seen enough of him this year to confirm, but the wickets are coming. Apparently his attitude is still crap though.

 

[a massive zebra]

A massive zebra? hehehe

I am actually a small mongolian child.

 

[Mr. P]

How come Harmison's average is better than the rest of the bowling attack in the games he's played then?

I agree 100% with the England squad to the WI.

Maybe because...

1/ Most of the games he's played have been against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe
2/ Your whole bowling attack is terrible and having the best bowling average is nothing to be excited about

 

[Greg Blewett]

I would have to totally agree that the a lot of the current England bowlers should not be there and others should be given a chance.

I don't think Harmison currently has either the skill or the mentality to be playing for the England team and surely there must be some other good bowlers in England who can do a far better job?

 

[Swervy]

I would have to totally agree that the a lot of the current England bowlers should not be there and others should be given a chance.

I don't think Harmison currently has either the skill or the mentality to be playing for the England team and surely there must be some other good bowlers in England who can do a far better job?

hehehehe..thats the problem...there isnt really

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

2/ Your whole bowling attack is terrible and having the best bowling average is nothing to be excited about

Says the Australian.

 

[Craig]

Tino Best has, from all reports, sorted his action greatly from last year. I haven't seen enough of him this year to confirm, but the wickets are coming. Apparently his attitude is still crap though.

Well all credit to Best then if it is true.

If his attitude is still crap, then that will be counted against him. Team unity is very important!

 

[chris.hinton]

i Dont know why Kabir was not included in ANY of the squad a bit Crap really

 

[tooextracool]

Are the England selectors right to select unreliable players who have not even proved themselves at county level, but have pace (Harmison, Jones etc), above slower bowlers who have proved themselves to be consistent reliable performers in that form of the game (Bicknell, Kirtley, Saggers etc)?

Kirtley and Bicknell did far better against South Africa than Harmison and co, but it was the latter who got selected for the winter tours. Saggers has been bowling well for 2 years and was not selected. It seems if you do well but are not that fast they drop you and if you get smacked but have pace they keep you in. Just not fair! :!(

Harmison and Jones do have pace but that alone is not enough to win you matches (eg Brett Lee, Mohammed Sami), and they are likely to be hit around the park.

Shoaib has been devastating recently but he is in a completly different league and generally the most effective pace bowlers are not the fastest but the most accurate (McGrath, Pollock etc).

heres another one of those guys who judges players by looking at the scorecard. if u think bicknell is a good bowler u shouldnt be watching cricket anymore. he bowls 70mph(slower than a few spin bowlers) and the only reason he got wickets against SA was because he was playing on a headingly wicket that was swinging all over the place. do u really believe that someone bowling at that pace on a placcid wicket in the west indies is going to be a success???and then dont forget his age...what is he 34-35?do u think someone like him will be able to take the baton from the goughs and caddicks and represent englands future??
as much of a success as kirtley has had in the national side i must admit that when u watch him bowl he just doesnt look good. the only reasons he picked up the 5er was because he was bowling on a up and down pitch where batting was very difficult. i find it hard to see him getting wickets in the west indies where there is no assistance whatsoever for the bowlers. further his pace will not pose any problems against the lara,chanderpaul,sarwan or gayle and from what i have seen he is not angus fraser like accurate.