Rate the current Test teams on the basis of how over/underrated their players are

[Fuller Pilch]

Bowler stats last 4 years:

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[kiwiviktor81]

Bowler stats last 4 years:

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

So it's a national embarrassment to all New Zealanders if someone considers Southee a top pacer apart from Steyn over the last 4 years, yet only 3 pacers have more wickets than him during this time period.

Southee (averaging 27.78 during this period) is apparently not in the same class as Anderson, whose average is a much, much lower 27.18. Neither is he in the same class as Philander, who has taken 96 wickets during this period to Southee's mere 123.

Guys, it's not the mid 1990s anymore. It's okay to think some of our players are good now.

 

[Athlai]

Urgh

 

[Gob]

So it's a national embarrassment to all New Zealanders if someone considers Southee a top pacer apart from Steyn over the last 4 years, yet only 3 pacers have more wickets than him during this time period.

Southee (averaging 27.78 during this period) is apparently not in the same class as Anderson, whose average is a much, much lower 27.18. Neither is he in the same class as Philander, who has taken 96 wickets during this period to Southee's mere 123.

Guys, it's not the mid 1990s anymore. It's okay to think some of our players are good now.

Nah they are just average

 

[91Jmay]

Can you count?

There are 4 pacers ahead of Southee on that list and Johnson has same amount of wickets in less tests with a far better SR and average so is clearly also ahead.

 

[harsh.ag]

So it's a national embarrassment to all New Zealanders if someone considers Southee a top pacer apart from Steyn over the last 4 years, yet only 3 pacers have more wickets than him during this time period.

Southee (averaging 27.78 during this period) is apparently not in the same class as Anderson, whose average is a much, much lower 27.18. Neither is he in the same class as Philander, who has taken 96 wickets during this period to Southee's mere 123.

Guys, it's not the mid 1990s anymore. It's okay to think some of our players are good now.

Can you count?

There are 4 pacers ahead of Southee on that list and Johnson has same amount of wickets in less tests with a far better SR and average so is clearly also ahead.

Children children, Southee isn't even close to the greatest bowler alive, and the number that you're looking for is five.

 

[Furball]

Tim Southee isn't fit to be compared with to Dale Steyn. I've never heard anyone make such a comparison.

Southee isn't fit to be compared with Anderson or Johnson never mind Steyn.

 

[91Jmay]

Children children, Southee isn't even close to the greatest bowler alive, and the number that you're looking for is five.

Johnson is technically equal with wickets to Southee, so no it is 4.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

Can you count?

There are 4 pacers ahead of Southee on that list and Johnson has same amount of wickets in less tests with a far better SR and average so is clearly also ahead.

Can you read?

We were excluding Steyn in this hypothetical, so the fast bowlers who have taken more wickets than him over the past 4 years are Anderson, Broad and Boult. That's it.

Note I wrote "Southee is contention to be the second best paceman over the past 4 years." I did not write "Southee is a class above Broad, Anderson, Johnson and Boult."

 

[kiwiviktor81]

southee isn't fit to be compared with anderson or johnson

Well, that's the OP proven correct.

 

[Athlai]

Southee at his best a few years back may have arguably been top 4-5 but hes fallen behind IMO. I'm his biggest fan and I doubt I could pinpoint a time he would have been the 2nd best bowler in the world.

Right now Southee is definitely behind Steyn, Broad, Anderson. I'd say Boult, Philander, Starc and Morkel would all be ahead of him as well but their form and fitness concerns probably place him somewhere in this pack (as well as Hazlewood, who I'd chuck in with this lot).

So Southee is in the top 10 pace bowlers, but probably not top 5.

 

[Furball]

If Dale Steyn wasn't around, Tim Southee would be a contender for top paceman in the world the past 3-4 years.

 

[Bahnz]

As noted Anderson doesn't really have anything on Southee besides playing a boat load more tests. Boult has had his ups and downs in this period, but with the exception of the 14/15 year has pretty much always played second fiddle to Tim.

These guys are very much in the chasing pack behind the top bowlers in this period (headlined by Steyn). Both Johnson and Harris are clearly in the top group, as is Broad and (to a lesser extent) Philander.

 

[marc71178]

If Dale Steyn wasn't around, Tim Southee would be a contender for top paceman in the world the past 3-4 years.

Been smoking again I see.

 

[harsh.ag]

As noted Anderson doesn't really have anything on Southee besides playing a boat load more tests. Boult has had his ups and downs in this period, but with the exception of the 14/15 year has pretty much always played second fiddle to Tim.

These guys are very much in the chasing pack behind the top bowlers in this period (headlined by Steyn). Both Johnson and Harris are clearly in the top group, as is Broad and (to a lesser extent) Philander.

Of course. Why let watching cricket get in the way of a statsguru fest

 

[Flem274*]

Kiwiviktor just trolled you all again

Nice to see the overglorified poms talked down again

 

[Athlai]

As noted Anderson doesn't really have anything on Southee besides playing a boat load more tests. Boult has had his ups and downs in this period, but with the exception of the 14/15 year has pretty much always played second fiddle to Tim.

These guys are very much in the chasing pack behind the top bowlers in this period (headlined by Steyn). Both Johnson and Harris are clearly in the top group, as is Broad and (to a lesser extent) Philander.

Yeah 12-14 Southee was better than he is currently IMO, but there was more competition at the time.

Southee getting underrated in Tests because they think his ODI bowling is overrated. It's dire.

Kiwiviktor is still way OTT though.

 

[Groundking]

As noted Anderson doesn't really have anything on Southee besides playing a boat load more tests. Boult has had his ups and downs in this period, but with the exception of the 14/15 year has pretty much always played second fiddle to Tim.

These guys are very much in the chasing pack behind the top bowlers in this period (headlined by Steyn). Both Johnson and Harris are clearly in the top group, as is Broad and (to a lesser extent) Philander.

So you don't think being horrifically overbowled, and asked to pretty much carry the attack in 2012 and 2013 didn't have a massive negative effect on him? The next most bowled seem up in that time frame, other than Broad, is Siddle, with 300 less overs bowled, that's practically a years worth more work done by Anderson compared to Siddle. And we pretty much have proof that this affected him as the two years before this (10/11) he averaged 23.68, and the two years (14/15) after this he averaged 22.41, which btw, is the second best average in this period for pace bowlers (having taken 40 or more wickets) after Steyn, yet in the years he was overbowled (12/13) he averaged 30.71.

Now I like Southee, but to suggest he's even near to par with Anderson is ridiculous. Anderson is monstrous, and the fact that he's second only to Steyn in terms of average, with a pretty decent gap to the next best bowler, in the two periods surrounding when he was overbowled says that really he should be the one talked about most when considering next best after Steyn.

 

[Bahnz]

So you don't think being horrifically overbowled, and asked to pretty much carry the attack in 2012 and 2013 didn't have a massive negative effect on him? The next most bowled seem up in that time frame, other than Broad, is Siddle, with 300 less overs bowled, that's practically a years worth more work done by Anderson compared to Siddle. And we pretty much have proof that this affected him as the two years before this (10/11) he averaged 23.68, and the two years (14/15) after this he averaged 22.41, which btw, is the second best average in this period for pace bowlers (having taken 40 or more wickets) after Steyn, yet in the years he was overbowled (12/13) he averaged 30.71.

Now I like Southee, but to suggest he's even near to par with Anderson is ridiculous. Anderson is monstrous, and the fact that he's second only to Steyn in terms of average, with a pretty decent gap to the next best bowler, in the two periods surrounding when he was overbowled says that really he should be the one talked about most when considering next best after Steyn.

You're missing the point though. There's no doubt that as of now Anderson is better than Southee. But the question that this thread has strangely morphed into isn't "who's the better bowler". It's who's been the better bowler in the last 4 years. In that frame the issue of whether Anderson's mediocre form during the 2013-14 period was due to him being overbowled in the lead up to that is irrelevant. In short it's about performances, not potential. And in terms of performances, Southee was brilliant from 2012 through to 2014, before falling away in the last 18 months, while Anderson started strong in 2012, fell away 2013-14, before recovering strongly in the last 18 months. Overall, their performance during the 4 year period are roughly on par with one another.

 

[Furball]

You're missing the point though. There's no doubt that as of now Anderson is better than Southee. But the question that this thread has strangely morphed into isn't "who's the better bowler". It's who's been the better bowler in the last 4 years. In that frame the issue of whether Anderson's mediocre form during the 2013-14 period was due to him being overbowled in the lead up to that is irrelevant. In short it's about performances, not potential. And in terms of performances, Southee was brilliant from 2012 through to 2014, before falling away in the last 18 months, while Anderson started strong in 2012, fell away 2013-14, before recovering strongly in the last 18 months. Overall, their performance during the 4 year period are roughly on par with one another.

Anderson's only "mediocre" phase was his away series against Australia...where he was playing with a cracked rib.