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Best batsman on poor pitches.

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Kent said:
Richard - I know you like to scoff at general consensus an awful lot of the time, but separating yourself from the norm doesn't always mean you're thinking on a level above the masses.

Perceiving yourself as having the superior judgement means there's really no point in paying attention to anyone's opinion, which is why I called this whole Richardson thing a stalemate. If you constantly get into stalemates though, you have to wonder if it's not always your opponents' ignorance or stubbornness to blame.
If by "scoff at general consensus" you mean rate batsmen and bowlers on what they do rather than on what everyone else rates them on, then sorry, I'm afraid yes, I do think I'm thinking a level above the masses.
I pay attention to others' opinion becuse they may have noticed something I have not. However, I normally value the sources on which I base my opinion, so I am not going to be swayed by something so immidiate as someone telling me they know better.
If you think the Richardson thing is a stalemate, fine, you can consider you've "won", I'll do the same.
And don't give me the rubbish about "I'm not into that childish 'have to win' nonsense", if you still think you're right and I'm wrong about Richardson, then there you go.
And I'm assuming you still do.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:
Is it supposed to compare each performance of one player, the performances of all players in that game, the performances of the opposition players hitherto, what?
It rates each player against the opposition at the same time in context of the match taking place.


Richard said:
Either way, it's not something that's going to be consistent and therefore not worth value IMO.
The ting it is completely consistent as it has no personal bias in there.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Whether or not the bias is personal (personally there are some things that happen that lead me to believe there is no other explanation) there are unquestionably biases in there.
What it attempts to do is not realistically possible.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
I'd like to know how you think Bias can occur in something where the rules are set before things it rates happen?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Because the rules aren't followed?
Anyway, the bias comes from the fact that the supposed strength of opposition is not a constant, it varies in reality and in the theory they use.
 

Kent

State 12th Man
Richard said:
If you think the Richardson thing is a stalemate, fine, you can consider you've "won", I'll do the same.
And don't give me the rubbish about "I'm not into that childish 'have to win' nonsense", if you still think you're right and I'm wrong about Richardson, then there you go.
And I'm assuming you still do.
Damn straight! Ok, 5 last questions then.

But first, I'd like to clear up why I'm going to these lengths on such a trivial issue. To me Richardson is the test player I aspired to be; the guy who shows kids you don't need to have the talents of a Dravid or Gilchrist to make it to the highest level and succeed.

If neo-purists like Richard don't appreciate him, there will be no more. Similar to golf, where the game will be blandly saturated by perfect swings and Tiger-clones rather than the John Dalys or other eccentrics that make it more interesting.

1) What are the aspects of Richardson's skills, technique or character that get him into trouble on poor pitches?

2) After around 6 years as a domestic opener in NZ, why are his stats healthy? Guys like Michael Mason can clearly exploit NZ conditions.

3) To back up your case, all you have are a handful of test innings you're yet to clearly identify. You admit yourself Richardson has rarely played on bowler's wickets at test level, and that in perhaps one of the most bowler-dominated series of the modern era he succeeded. Seeing you go more on performance than impression, why are you comfortable using such a small sample?

4) Most would concede there is an element of luck involved in surviving difficult conditions. Players risk getting a delivery 'with their name on it'. Why are failures unacceptable in Richardson's case, yet not in say Dravid's?

5) Why was Dravid trying to cover drive a yorker from Bond that took middle and off?
 
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Craig

World Traveller
Kent said:
But first, I'd like clear up why I'm going to these lengths on such a trivial issue. To me Richardson is the test player I aspired to be; the guy who shows kids you don't need to have the talents of a Dravid or Gilchrist to make it to the highest level and succeed.
I would agree whole heartly there.

To turn from a finger spinner who batted at 10 or 11 and become into a Test opener is certainly worth credit to.

Richard who would be your NZ openers?
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:
Because the rules aren't followed?
And how will you show that?

Richard said:
Anyway, the bias comes from the fact that the supposed strength of opposition is not a constant, it varies in reality and in the theory they use.
The theory remains constant, the strength varies.
 

Isolator

State 12th Man
Kent said:
To me Richardson is the test player I aspired to be; the guy who shows kids you don't need to have the talents of a Dravid or Gilchrist to make it to the highest level and succeed.
Well said!
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Kent said:
Damn straight! Ok, 5 last questions then.

But first, I'd like to clear up why I'm going to these lengths on such a trivial issue. To me Richardson is the test player I aspired to be; the guy who shows kids you don't need to have the talents of a Dravid or Gilchrist to make it to the highest level and succeed.

If neo-purists like Richard don't appreciate him, there will be no more. Similar to golf, where the game will be blandly saturated by perfect swings and Tiger-clones rather than the John Dalys or other eccentrics that make it more interesting.

1) What are the aspects of Richardson's skills, technique or character that get him into trouble on poor pitches?

2) After around 6 years as a domestic opener in NZ, why are his stats healthy? Guys like Michael Mason can clearly exploit NZ conditions.

3) To back up your case, all you have are a handful of test innings you're yet to clearly identify. You admit yourself Richardson has rarely played on bowler's wickets at test level, and that in perhaps one of the most bowler-dominated series of the modern era he succeeded. Seeing you go more on performance than impression, why are you comfortable using such a small sample?

4) Most would concede there is an element of luck involved in surviving difficult conditions. Players risk getting a delivery 'with their name on it'. Why are failures unacceptable in Richardson's case, yet not in say Dravid's?

5) Why was Dravid trying to cover drive a yorker from Bond that took middle and off?
Pre) If Richardson wasn't talented, he'd not have the average he has. Maybe he's a flat-track bully, but he's still a better flat-track bully than plenty around today. It does, believe it or not, take skill to score chanceless big scores in Test-cricket, if anything I think it takes more skill to score them at the pace Richardson tends to than that typical to Gilchrist, Laxman etc.
So Richardson is very talented if you ask me - far more so than most players around in the current moment.
1) Richardson has an extreme vulnerability to the in-swinger and in-seamer. Hoggard and Caddick made that pretty clear in 2001\02. Not that any left-hander, no matter how good, will not have trouble with it, but Richardson seemed at times as bad as Wavell Hinds in 2000.
2) Yes, fair enough. I cannot say anything about that; Richardson must have batted well to have had consistent success in a competition played on seamer-friendly wickets so often. All I can go on is Test-cricket.
3) Let's just clear it up beyond all question: the three Tests in New Zealand against England in 2001\02. No, that sort of sample is not ideal at all, but the example of Tests Richardson has played on seamer-friendly wickets, however small, indicates that he has failed more often than he has succeeded. The strength of India's attack in the respective series, also, should be noted, even if it was made to look much better than it really was.
4) True, I have not analysed every dismissal; if Richardson got an RUD, he can't have any blame at all. But nor can someone be credited as Richardson often is for supposedly succeeding in difficult conditions when so few of them have been so.
5) I don't know; all I can think of is the simple fact that good batsmen play poor strokes, Dravid amongst them. I have never raved about Dravid the way some have, but he does seem to be rather good at conquering difficult conditions, for instance his chanceless 150 at Headingley. He is another of the benefactors of the recent tirade of non-seaming wickets around ATM, though he did still average over 50 in the more difficult days.
 

Kent

State 12th Man
Only you could get 'unco' from "don't need to have the talents of a Dravid or Gilchrist", Richard.

I hope for your sake you're not anyone's red-headed stepchild the way you can play devil's advocate. If you were better informed you could be the next Tim Sebastian. Aside from that, nice progress. You've now reached a stance I find much less obnoxious.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
None on my part.
I've had about 4 girlfriends who're gingers or strawberry-blondes.
Just assuring Kent I'm not what he seemed worried I was. ;)
 

Isolator

State 12th Man
Richard said:
Pre) If Richardson wasn't talented, he'd not have the average he has. Maybe he's a flat-track bully, but he's still a better flat-track bully than plenty around today. It does, believe it or not, take skill to score chanceless big scores in Test-cricket, if anything I think it takes more skill to score them at the pace Richardson tends to than that typical to Gilchrist, Laxman etc.
So Richardson is very talented if you ask me - far more so than most players around in the current moment.
This is an unususal definition of talent you've got here. I don't really have a definition of my own, but when I think of talent I'd think of a Herschelle Gibbs rather than a Gary Kirsten. Granted, Kirsten is skilled, but that to me is not the same as being talented. Similarly, Richardson is skilled, but he has had to build himself up to what he is, take stock of his limitations and build his innings on patience and perseverance. "Talent" involves a certain degree of natural flair, in my opinion.

You'd think of a Roger Federer as talented but you wouldn't think of Michael Chang the same way, would you?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Talent and skill are exactly the same thing. Flair is slightly different, involving something to do with the unexpected.
The ability to select shots correctly, whether in a Gilchrist way or a Kirsten way, is a talent\skill.
Richardson's technique and shot-selection, while not IMO very well suited to conditions where the ball is nipping around, is still brilliantly equipped to play long innings when the going's good.
All right, technique is something you can build yourself, but shot-selection is not. If we could all perfect our shot-selection just by practising, everyone in The World who ever picked-up a cricket bat would average 100 in Test-cricket. Shot-selection can only be worked-on and improved to a very small degree.
It is totally natural, hence I regard it as a skill\talent. It's what seperates the Bradmans from the Headleys from the (other) all-time greats from the all-time-very-goods from the Test-class batsmen from the First-Class-standard batsmen from the club standard batsmen. They showed that Bradman's eye was not exceptional, and from what I understand the eye of a good club batsman is no different to that of the like of Tendulkar and Lara.
It's all in the shot-selection. And of course the technique, which you can work on all you like till it's as good as you want.
 

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