Questions from an American: Learning from the beginning

[Gob]

Great to have George RR Martin on cw

 

[weldone]

Howe_zat likes this

Are you related to Tim?

 

[Dan]

Are you related to Tim?

They're all related up there.

 

[Howe_zat]

They're all related up there.

Yorkshire would be the 2nd largest Australian state by population

 

[Pratters]

I have noticed that there doesn't seem to be any identifying numbers or names on the players' uniforms. Is it for reasons of modesty?.

It's interesting to see it from a non native pov that picking the fielders is harder without the numbers. When you've grown up with the game it doesn't seem strange at all. I suppose when you've got 6 hours to watch em each day over 5 days you get to know who's who. Just the way different guys move you soon pick up the individuals and certain guys tend to field in certain areas so you're always pretty sure the fine leg will be the bowler from the other end for eg. Also there just aren't that many Test cricketers at any one time - so it's not like trying to get to pick every player in say a football league just by sight.

Numbers have come in for some of the lower level red ball competitions (red ball = games longer than one day, ie two innings each), but I think retaining the white clothing tradition for tests with no numbering is worth preserving. Whilst things like day/night tests are a good development to try there is something wonderfully anachronistic about Test Cricket that makes it so special. Hope you continue enjoying it.

I watched a day of first class game last Sunday. I asked a fellow spectator if Ojha was playing. He said that he is fielding at mid on. I looked over. Recognised the tall figure and the general way he was standing. It was definitely Ojha. Didn't take more than 3 seconds to identify. Cricket is a game of so much character still. Yasir Shah runs up to the crease rapidly and Holding used to move gently like a gazelle. Then, there is Misbah or Dharmasena who are calm as a monk. It's lovely that they don't have numbers in tests. There are 11 players fielding and you can identify slowly who is who over a course of 6 hours while drinking your tea or wine or champagne (some people pop the champagne on opening days of a first class season in England) and chomping on your sandwiches. Much better than eating a hot dog and a drinking a double extra large bottle of cola, I am sure. County cricket does have numbers in first class cricket but I would prefer that they got rid of it too, while we are at it.

 

[watson]

I watched a day of first class game last Sunday. I asked a fellow spectator if Ojha was playing. He said that he is fielding at mid on. I looked over. Recognised the tall figure and the general way he was standing. It was definitely Ojha. Didn't take more than 3 seconds to identify. Cricket is a game of so much character still. Yasir Shah runs up to the crease rapidly and Holding used to move gently like a gazelle. Then, there is Misbah or Dharmasena who are calm as a monk. It's lovely that they don't have numbers in tests. There are 11 players fielding and you can identify slowly who is who over a course of 6 hours while drinking your tea or wine or champagne (some people pop the champagne on opening days of a first class season in England) and chomping on your sandwiches. Much better than eating a hot dog and a drinking a double extra large bottle of cola, I am sure. County cricket does have numbers in first class cricket but I would prefer that they got rid of it too, while we are at it.

One of the best lines on CW.

 

[Joseph Redgate]

I understand that the same two batsmen alternate being the striker (depending upon whether it was an odd or even number of runs) until one of them gets dismissed, which is when the third batsman goes in. At the same time, two bowlers alternate every six overs, but what dictates when a third or fourth bowler enters? At 1/178, there have now been three batsmen but (I think) there have been five bowlers.

 

[adub]

I understand that the same two batsmen alternate being the striker (depending upon whether it was an odd or even number of runs) until one of them gets dismissed, while two bowlers alternate every six overs, but what dictates when a third or fourth bowler enters?

An 'over' is 6 deliveries. So the bowler bowls 6 deliveries from one 'end' and then another bowler bowls an over from the other end. The captain can choose any of his team to bowl an over (even the wicket keeper if he wanted to) except the bowler who bowled the previous over. So generally a bowler will bowl a 'spell' (a number of consecutive overs from one end), until the captain decides to make a bowling change and give another bowler a spell. It's simply a matter of if the Captain wants to give his bowler a rest, or try a different tactic, or is unhappy with how the current bowler is performing that determines when a bowling change occurs.

 

[Joseph Redgate]

Although it would never happen, if the Captain wanted, he could continuously rotate his entire team into the bowling position for the duration of the test, with each member having bowled several times?

 

[adub]

For instance you usually start off with your two best fast bowlers simply because they are fresh and the ball is new and hard and fast bowlers generally find that the best time to bowl. As the ball ages the fielding team will look to shine one side of the ball to assist it to 'swing' (curve in the air). So usually once the two opening quicks start to tire (after around 5 overs each or so) your 'first change' bowler(s) will come on. Often this is a guy who is not as quick as the opening bowlers but has some ability with swinging the ball. As the ball and pitch further age your 'spin' bowlers come on. These guys are the slowest bowlers, but look to get the ball to turn sharply off the pitch by imparting sideways spin on the ball. Often an older ball is easier for them to grip and to get grip off the pitch whilst it isn't so good for the quicker bowlers.

As the ball ages even further and the team continues to work on the ball (rubbing and spit/sweat is allowed only) it can start to swing again but in the opposite direction to how it was previously (called reverse swing) and your quick bowlers come back on to take advantage of that. And then finally after 80 overs the fielding side has the option of replacing the ball with a new one (taking the new ball). Again that gets your opening bowlers back for a spell and the process starts over until the innings is complete.

In places like India you can see spinners opening the bowling because the pitch is more suited to that type of bowling and on some pitches like in Perth sometimes it is so good for pace bowling you don't play a spinner at all, but generally quicks followed by medium pace/swing followed by spin is a standard sort of way to use your 'attack' (your team's bowlers are referred to as an 'attack')

So there is no hard and fast rule, it's simply a tactical consideration from the captain as to which bowler's they feel best suit at the time depending on things like their fitness, the condition of the ball, the condition of the pitch, the condition of the atmosphere (cloud cover assists swing bowling), the strengths and weaknesses of the batsmen etc. There's a real art to it and the best captains develop a reputation for making successful bowling changes.

 

[adub]

Although it would never happen, if the Captain wanted, he could continuously rotate his entire team into the bowling position for the entire test?

Correct. So long as you don't bowl two consecutive overs (ie one from each end) anyone can bowl. (some restrictions if you've had to go off the field injured, but that's beside the point). Everyone in the 11 bats, and how many bowl is entirely up to the Captain. All 11 players have actually bowled in 4 innings in Test Cricket history.

Records | Test matches | Team records | Most bowlers in an innings | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Joseph Redgate]

(edited for length) For instance you usually start off with your two best fast bowlers... ...There's a real art to it and the best captains develop a reputation for making successful bowling changes.

That was a fantastic explanation; thank you!

 

[adub]

That was a fantastic explanation; thank you!

Pleasure.

As you've probably picked up most of the player's in the team are specialists in one skill or another. Your top 5 batsmen are generally selected for their batting skill and if they never bowl a single ball that's no issue. Wicket keepers are specialists but ability as a batsman is still important, and then you've got specialist bowlers who are also know as 'tail enders' or 'the tail' (collectively) because they are generally not very skilled as batsmen and so bat last in the order. Most teams like to have an 'all rounder' in their side for balance. An all rounder is someone who is reasonably skilled at both batting and bowling. They are popular because having only 4 bowlers is often not enough to manage the workload of a days play (and in white ball cricket you must bowl 5 bowlers minimum) but playing 5 specialist bowlers can leave your batting too weak. That said players who are really good at both batting and bowling are very rare. If you watch the All Stars game from Houston you will see Jacques Kallis from South Africa who is one of these real rarities (one of the best batsmen of all time, and a very very handy bowler). But it's more common for an all rounder to be not quite good enough to make it as either a batsman or bowler, but the combination is valuable.

So the way a side is set up you will usually see 4 specialist bowlers + 1 all rounder doing the bulk of the bowling. Some batsmen are handy bowlers and will get a bowl sometimes if the captain wants to rest his main bowlers or is just looking for a bit of a miracle (these part time bowlers can often catch batsmen out because they relax or are surprised by a ball so bad they hit it straight to a fielder). But these guys are definitely part-timers. You might have seen New Zealand's Kane Williamson bowling in the recent test - a good example of a part-timer.

So usually you'll see about 5 bowlers bowl in any one innings. If you've got a really great attack you might get away with 4, and if you need to use a part-timer for a few overs it will get out to 6. If you are getting over 6 it is usually because the opposition is scoring a huge score and the bowling captain is desperate.

 

[Dan]

Yeah, to build on adub's point about rotating your bowlers and the use of part timers, one guy who did that very well in recent years was Michael Clarke.

As Australian captain, he'd make all sorts of random bowling changes which, to outsiders, looked bizarre -- here is a tongue-in-cheek video package about his use of very-much-specialist-batsman Mike Hussey as a part-time partnership breaking option, and he even asked the wicketkeeper to bowl an over in another game. Then there's his use of Steve Smith (a slightly-better-than-part-time legspinner) against English batsman Ian Bell.

Throughout his captaincy career, Clarke had a reputation for making these strange bowling changes -- but quite often they paid off with very valuable wickets!

 

[Red]

It's probably helpful to know how the teams are set up/selected as well.

As someone said, the top 5 in the batting order are (nearly always) the specialist batsmen. Number 6 might be another specialist batsman or might be an all rounder (who bats and bowls). Number 7 is usually the wicketkeeper's batting position. Positions 8-11 are generally filled by specialist bowlers (pitchers) one of whom is usually a spinner, and three of whom are usually quicks. On some pitches, a team might play more spinners or more quicks, depending on what the pitch and weather conditions are conducive to,

So when you see the current Australian team listed in batting order, it looks like:

1. Warner (batsman)
2. Burns (batsman)
3. Khawaja (batsman)
4. Smith (batsman)
5. Voges (batsman)
6. Marsh (all rounder)
7. Nevill (wicketkeeper)
8. Johnson (fast bowler)
9. Starc (fast bowler)
10. Hazelwood (fast bowler)
11. Lyon (spin bowler)

The batting order can be changed at the discretion of the captain depending on the match situation, for example Marsh was sent in during the Aus/NZ test as a hitter (maybe in baseball parlance it'd be a pinch hitter), as the team were seeking quick runs. The top two listed are the "openers" and that's a specialist position. Number 3 is a specialist position too. 4 - 6/7/8 is the middle order and 8/9 onward is the "tail".

So the four bowlers (Johnson, Starc, Hazelwood and Lyon) and the all rounder (Marsh) do most of the bowling. From time to time Voges or Smith or Warner might bowl a few overs, and if they do they are generally referred to as "part timers".

However, when you see a bowling card, it will list the bowlers in the order they bowled in an innings. So the first innings in the recent test for Australia was:

Starc
Johnson
Hazelwood
Lyon
Marsh
Voges

Once again, this order is entirely at the captain's discretion and will depend on the match situation and the conditions.

 

[Howe_zat]

#8 is a position with some batting responsibility these days. Most teams like to have a bowler there with at least some sort of allround game. Pakistan have been getting away with four specialist bowlers recently but it's been commented on as a minor weakness.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

And to come back to the fielding, cricketers are rarely selected on their fielding ability; at best it's a tie breaker if you've got two or three batsmen at a similar level - the notable exception being the wicketkeeper, who needs to meet some minimum level of competence. The captain then distributes the players at his disposal around the field - usually the batsmen will field close in and the bowlers further out, the batsmen as a general rule have better reactions and so are better suited to holding catches. The more experienced players might also have their fixed positions and the 'rookies' are moved around more for tactical reasons.

 

[Red]

#8 is a position with some batting responsibility these days. Most teams like to have a bowler there with at least some sort of allround game. Pakistan have been getting away with four specialist bowlers recently but it's been commented on as a minor weakness.

True. It's obviously ideal if possible. Australia have been spoilt for a long time in having bowlers who could also bat quite well. Johnson, Warne, Harris, Lee and Gillespie have all been pretty handy batsmen who have made good runs at times. Starc and Hazelwood are both pretty competent bats currently and Lyon is far from dire.

It can make a big difference if your tail enders can bat with some competence.

 

[Gob]

Pleasure.

As you've probably picked up most of the player's in the team are specialists in one skill or another. Your top 5 batsmen are generally selected for their batting skill and if they never bowl a single ball that's no issue. Wicket keepers are specialists but ability as a batsman is still important, and then you've got specialist bowlers who are also know as 'tail enders' or 'the tail' (collectively) because they are generally not very skilled as batsmen and so bat last in the order. Most teams like to have an 'all rounder' in their side for balance. An all rounder is someone who is reasonably skilled at both batting and bowling. They are popular because having only 4 bowlers is often not enough to manage the workload of a days play (and in white ball cricket you must bowl 5 bowlers minimum) but playing 5 specialist bowlers can leave your batting too weak. That said players who are really good at both batting and bowling are very rare. If you watch the All Stars game from Houston you will see Jacques Kallis from South Africa who is one of these real rarities (one of the best batsmen of all time, and a very very handy bowler). But it's more common for an all rounder to be not quite good enough to make it as either a batsman or bowler, but the combination is valuable.

So the way a side is set up you will usually see 4 specialist bowlers + 1 all rounder doing the bulk of the bowling. Some batsmen are handy bowlers and will get a bowl sometimes if the captain wants to rest his main bowlers or is just looking for a bit of a miracle (these part time bowlers can often catch batsmen out because they relax or are surprised by a ball so bad they hit it straight to a fielder). But these guys are definitely part-timers. You might have seen New Zealand's Kane Williamson bowling in the recent test - a good example of a part-timer.

So usually you'll see about 5 bowlers bowl in any one innings. If you've got a really great attack you might get away with 4, and if you need to use a part-timer for a few overs it will get out to 6. If you are getting over 6 it is usually because the opposition is scoring a huge score and the bowling captain is desperate.

Yeah, to build on adub's point about rotating your bowlers and the use of part timers, one guy who did that very well in recent years was Michael Clarke.

As Australian captain, he'd make all sorts of random bowling changes which, to outsiders, looked bizarre -- here is a tongue-in-cheek video package about his use of very-much-specialist-batsman Mike Hussey as a part-time partnership breaking option, and he even asked the wicketkeeper to bowl an over in another game. Then there's his use of Steve Smith (a slightly-better-than-part-time legspinner) against English batsman Ian Bell.

Throughout his captaincy career, Clarke had a reputation for making these strange bowling changes -- but quite often they paid off with very valuable wickets!

It's probably helpful to know how the teams are set up/selected as well.

As someone said, the top 5 in the batting order are (nearly always) the specialist batsmen. Number 6 might be another specialist batsman or might be an all rounder (who bats and bowls). Number 7 is usually the wicketkeeper's batting position. Positions 8-11 are generally filled by specialist bowlers (pitchers) one of whom is usually a spinner, and three of whom are usually quicks. On some pitches, a team might play more spinners or more quicks, depending on what the pitch and weather conditions are conducive to,

So when you see the current Australian team listed in batting order, it looks like:

1. Warner (batsman)
2. Burns (batsman)
3. Khawaja (batsman)
4. Smith (batsman)
5. Voges (batsman)
6. Marsh (all rounder)
7. Nevill (wicketkeeper)
8. Johnson (fast bowler)
9. Starc (fast bowler)
10. Hazelwood (fast bowler)
11. Lyon (spin bowler)

The batting order can be changed at the discretion of the captain depending on the match situation, for example Marsh was sent in during the Aus/NZ test as a hitter (maybe in baseball parlance it'd be a pinch hitter), as the team were seeking quick runs. The top two listed are the "openers" and that's a specialist position. Number 3 is a specialist position too. 4 - 6/7/8 is the middle order and 8/9 onward is the "tail".

So the four bowlers (Johnson, Starc, Hazelwood and Lyon) and the all rounder (Marsh) do most of the bowling. From time to time Voges or Smith or Warner might bowl a few overs, and if they do they are generally referred to as "part timers".

However, when you see a bowling card, it will list the bowlers in the order they bowled in an innings. So the first innings in the recent test for Australia was:

Starc
Johnson
Hazelwood
Lyon
Marsh
Voges

Once again, this order is entirely at the captain's discretion and will depend on the match situation and the conditions.

woow you guys cricket is fast becoming my favorite sport

 

[Joseph Redgate]

Here's an odd question: Is there some reason that no-one tells Steven Smith to stop picking his toes and put his shoes on? The camera has focused in on him at least three times so far, showing him sitting barefoot and making devout work of picking his toes... in public... on live television... representing his team and his country... in front of the entire world. Am I the only person that finds that disgusting and completely distasteful? Just thinking about it makes me want to throw up in my mouth.