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The Lost New Zealand team under Stephen Fleming

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
How is this at all relevant to which team plays their 3-test series first and which team plays their 3-test series second in the Australian summer?

Sure, your point is fine. It just simply isn't relevant to the case at hand; the ICC having a strong Test Championship which says "Thou shalt play 3 Tests vs. WI and 3 Tests vs. NZ this summer" doesn't tell CA that they must play the WI first because they're a worse team while NZ becomes the main event. And that strong Test Championship fixture list would, by necessity, also be set years in advance anyway (if not more so!)
Even under a proper test championship schedule where teams played home away/home in consistent basis was implemented as ICC said it would - I would not expect AUS to hosts any other team in boxing day/new years tests given the current realities (financial/aus fan interests)/strengths of their team other than England, India, South Africa especially if its two teams touring like this season.
 
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Days of Grace

International Captain
His 222 @ C'Church 02 was very McCullum-esque & 156 & Perth 01 was similar to a few of Williamsons classy recent hundreds vs very good pace attacks.
Who do you reckon was better/most useful as an overall cricketer? Astle, McMillan, or Styris?
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Who do you reckon was better/most useful as an overall cricketer? Astle, McMillan, or Styris?
Honestly I feel that Styris was dumped from the test team way too early, particularly considering how weak our whole batting lineup was when he was made an odi specialist (and then retired).
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Who do you reckon was better/most useful as an overall cricketer? Astle, McMillan, or Styris?
Astle in general, although how Styris evolved from a sort of Harris/Larsen type medium pacer to a solid top -order batsmen was one of those cricket career developments that surprised me.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
One series from this Fleming era I recall notably for some reason oddly is the 1999 tour to India. Never actually saw it live, just remember late night BBC sport highlights of it & two things always sticks in my brain:

- NZ bowling out IND for 81 in one of those tests with Cairns/Nash/O'Connor on fire

- The ODI series being played in white clothing


 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Good question. McMillan had the highest ceiling but should probably be rated behind both of the others. I think I'd go Styris>Astle>McMillan
Hard to see how McMillan had the highest ceiling TBF. Astle for me of all NZ batsman of this period was had talent to be closer to the elite batsman of the time, if he had a few more notable scores vs big teams.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Astle comfortably the best of the three imo. The most test runs (4700) of the three, scored runs against all comers, only averaged 37 though iirc it was higher before a dive towards the end of his career, and his bowling was very useful.

Styris was good for a very brief period - I rated him NZ's best batsman some time around 04/05 but he still only scored a meagre 1500 test runs before the aforementioned rage-quit. I can't remember the exact circumstances - might look back at my old posts on the topic.

Hard to separate McMillan the disappointment from the fact he scored 3100 runs at 38 i.e. double those of Styris at a higher average. I've carped enough on this over the years but I think that average is a little flattering.

So **** it, Astle>Styris>McMillan
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Astle comfortably the best of the three imo. The most test runs (4700) of the three, scored runs against all comers, only averaged 37 though iirc it was higher before a dive towards the end of his career, and his bowling was very useful.

Styris was good for a very brief period - I rated him NZ's best batsman some time around 04/05 but he still only scored a meagre 1500 test runs before the aforementioned rage-quit. I can't remember the exact circumstances - might look back at my old posts on the topic.

Hard to separate McMillan the disappointment from the fact he scored 3100 runs at 38 i.e. double those of Styris at a higher average. I've carped enough on this over the years but I think that average is a little flattering.

So **** it, Astle>Styris>McMillan
Ye ha fair point, I too am not sure if McMillan's average was a sign that he under-achieved or flattering.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
One series from this Fleming era I recall notably for some reason oddly is the 1999 tour to India. Never actually saw it live, just remember late night BBC sport highlights of it & two things always sticks in my brain:

- NZ bowling out IND for 81 in one of those tests with Cairns/Nash/O'Connor on fire

- The ODI series being played in white clothing


jesus I never realised how similar Boult was to O'Connor
 

jcas0167

International Debutant
Astle in general, although how Styris evolved from a sort of Harris/Larsen type medium pacer to a solid top -order batsmen was one of those cricket career developments that surprised me.
Both Styris and Astle initially featured quite low down the order for their provinces and were very effective with their medium pace. I recall Styris batting about 9 or 10 for ND in a game at Mount Manganui when he was 19 and he looked quite a powerful and clean striker. When Simon Doull retired he mentioned that he thought Styris would become a very good batsman.

I think in terms of early career hype McMillan well exceeded the other two. He was pretty close to making the 96 World Cup as a 19 year old and by that stage had a couple of good seasons batting number 3 in that very strong Canterbury team. He also captained a very strong under 19 team to Australia and England. I'm not sure how much his diabetes affected his batting in later years, but he was never quite the dominant force that it looked like he could become.

In terms of ability Rixon seemed to be most impressed with Astle when he took over saying he was "very special." Particularly, the way he could just go out to bat without over-thinking things.
 
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straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Tbf if there's one place NZ doesn't deserve three tests it's South Africa after our last tour there. In saying that they still could have scheduled them on the assumption that it would be more competitive this time.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Imagine we'll get them for 3 at home, though.
Yes they will in 2017, but remember the argument against NZ is they are not commercial viable to hosts for the big 3 nations plus SA & those 5 ODI's vs AUS was not in the original 2014-2019 FTP - http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/DOWNLOAD/0000/0045/ftp_2015_2019.pdf it had to have been recently negotiated.

So that's another bad sign that this new exciting NZ on the potential verge of bigger things - isn't making teams to give them more games. Why not give you guys a 3rd test I'd say..
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Tbf if there's one place NZ doesn't deserve three tests it's South Africa after our last tour there. In saying that they still could have scheduled them on the assumption that it would be more competitive this time.
Lets say NZ win one of these upcoming series vs AUS & draw the other, while SA win India India - that NZ vs SA serious could be a battle for # 1 test team clash & that surely would deserve more than 2 tests.
 

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