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South African Domestic Season 2015/16
- Thread starter SeamUp
- Start date
Marius
International Debutant
Exactly.
It doesn't help saying the Proteas must be more black, but not do anything at the bottom, it's a classic case of putting the cart before the horse.
And the phenomenon of certain schools dominating is not unique to South Africa, as I understand it is similar in New Zealand and Australia.
And in England the game is becoming more and more elitist and increasingly becoming a game of the prosperous middle class. The last cricketer who was actually from London to play Test cricket for England was Ravi Bopara. And Scyld Berry makes the point that to play for England you have to have had one of these four advantages:
- You have to have attended a fee-paying school;
- Have a close relative who has played either Test or first-class cricket, or will do so;
- Professional football, with the benefits entailed; and
- Being born in Yorkshire or Lancashire where even small communities have a cricket ground.
This hand wringing about cricket is really starting to irritate me. Cricket is, by it's nature, somewhat elitist. It is probably only on the Indian subcontinent that it is anything like a people's game (I'm not sure what the situation is in the West Indies). Of course players from disadvantaged backgrounds should be developed and given assistance, but players from certain backgrounds and schools will dominate. And the Proteas will become more mixed as more black players attend schools with strong cricketing traditions.
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
Over the years I have met a few South Africans in UK spoken to some sports media to understand this quota thing deeply. As a black mixed race individual I find the situation quite wrong having heard both the pro-quota and anit-quota proponents.
Apartheid and the quota policy is indefensible. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I don't see why post apartheid born white S Africans who in general have no racist tendencies & are seeking in harmony with the africans - should be denied a chance at a sporting career, because of what their ancestors did.
One of the strange things about the debate of having more black players is how S Africa define a "black man" which is totally different to how people in England, USA, Caribbean do.
To the rest of the world, Vernon Philander is black, but to S Africa he isn't as black as Tsotsobe or young Rabada
What gets ignored in this debate is the fact that most black african don't like cricket. When Football player Steven Pienaar was at his peak, he more popular among black african than Jacques Kallis.
Back also when Lucas Radebe, Quinton Fortune & Benni McCarthy played in the premier league, they were more popular than Pollock, Allan Donald, Klusener, Gibbs etc in their prime.
When Ntini was at the peak of is powers in the mid 2000's that was the only period when black S Africa's really got into cricket. But football was still paramount.
Its like trying to attack indians in guyana/trinidad to play football - when they all about cricket. Dead end.
The mistake CSA have done is not get into the rural black communities & promote to sport from the grassroots level, And local TV stations do not broadcast cricket unless its a tour to SA. The domestic championships and oversees tours are been televised on the pay channels which most ppl (black ppl) cant afford. So the latter doesn't help. But it makes no sense punishing the good white players who merit a place on ability.
South Africa have serious talent in depth - so really since readmission playing the odd token black/coloured player hasn't really affected them seriously since they have generally always been among the the top two test sides.
However though in S Africa society forms of racism still exist in the work environment - so things are not perfect post apartheid. But i'd argue in England & all across the western white man world, that blacks/minority races still have these issues in the jobs world. So trying to fix ill's of the past through sport is illogical to me & it will just cause some white players to go kolpak or play for England or New Zealand as we have seen over the years.
I'd wager also if the ICC was a very strong governing body like FIFA, S Africa could not have implemented quotas at the highest level. Because it is a government implemented policy & we know how FIFA is against government intervention in sport - something ICC don't have the balls or structure to do.
Apartheid and the quota policy is indefensible. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I don't see why post apartheid born white S Africans who in general have no racist tendencies & are seeking in harmony with the africans - should be denied a chance at a sporting career, because of what their ancestors did.
One of the strange things about the debate of having more black players is how S Africa define a "black man" which is totally different to how people in England, USA, Caribbean do.
To the rest of the world, Vernon Philander is black, but to S Africa he isn't as black as Tsotsobe or young Rabada
What gets ignored in this debate is the fact that most black african don't like cricket. When Football player Steven Pienaar was at his peak, he more popular among black african than Jacques Kallis.
Back also when Lucas Radebe, Quinton Fortune & Benni McCarthy played in the premier league, they were more popular than Pollock, Allan Donald, Klusener, Gibbs etc in their prime.
When Ntini was at the peak of is powers in the mid 2000's that was the only period when black S Africa's really got into cricket. But football was still paramount.
Its like trying to attack indians in guyana/trinidad to play football - when they all about cricket. Dead end.
The mistake CSA have done is not get into the rural black communities & promote to sport from the grassroots level, And local TV stations do not broadcast cricket unless its a tour to SA. The domestic championships and oversees tours are been televised on the pay channels which most ppl (black ppl) cant afford. So the latter doesn't help. But it makes no sense punishing the good white players who merit a place on ability.
South Africa have serious talent in depth - so really since readmission playing the odd token black/coloured player hasn't really affected them seriously since they have generally always been among the the top two test sides.
However though in S Africa society forms of racism still exist in the work environment - so things are not perfect post apartheid. But i'd argue in England & all across the western white man world, that blacks/minority races still have these issues in the jobs world. So trying to fix ill's of the past through sport is illogical to me & it will just cause some white players to go kolpak or play for England or New Zealand as we have seen over the years.
I'd wager also if the ICC was a very strong governing body like FIFA, S Africa could not have implemented quotas at the highest level. Because it is a government implemented policy & we know how FIFA is against government intervention in sport - something ICC don't have the balls or structure to do.
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So whats superior Seam up our Futures comp which has youth quotas or S Africa's 2nd comp?
I notice the Irene Village side bt Bangladesh yesterday quite easily,so their must be depth there.
But with quotas in 2nd division first class cricket it could be quite weak,i dunno.
NZ seem to have a strong comp,altho dunno about their 2nd xl comp.
English 2nds filled with foreigners and 17/20 year olds.
I notice the Irene Village side bt Bangladesh yesterday quite easily,so their must be depth there.
But with quotas in 2nd division first class cricket it could be quite weak,i dunno.
NZ seem to have a strong comp,altho dunno about their 2nd xl comp.
English 2nds filled with foreigners and 17/20 year olds.
Rasimione
U19 Captain
I'm for transformation but the way we doing it it's counterproductive. IMO what should happen is that each and every school should have the resources to play the sport. This will allow greater access to blacks to play at the highest level. The current model is elitist to the extreme and with South Africa's history it can't be allowed to continue.
What currently happens is that for a black player to make it, he has to play for one of this super schools. In such a scenario the pool of talented players shrinks to a negligible size. And this is where the problem arises. Majority of blacks don't have access to these facilities unless those schools give them bursaries to study there.
Unfortunately with the current franchise system, the problem will now be amplified. Well deserving white players will be sidelined through no fault of their own. Unless we go back to the provincial system, nothing will ever work.
The reality of the situation is that to develop quality black players needs time. People running cricket in our country have wasted time playing politics. In the next 3/4 years we will lose a great number of white players with the qoutas as is. It's inevitable.
Which brings me to another point, except for Bavuma, there doesn't seem to be any black batsmen who can play for the Proteas. Looking at provincial sides and the franchise system black batsmen are struggling. For the purpose of this post, blacks excludes South Africans of indian and coloured descent.
I just hope sanity prevails, but will the politicians listen? I fear not.
What currently happens is that for a black player to make it, he has to play for one of this super schools. In such a scenario the pool of talented players shrinks to a negligible size. And this is where the problem arises. Majority of blacks don't have access to these facilities unless those schools give them bursaries to study there.
Unfortunately with the current franchise system, the problem will now be amplified. Well deserving white players will be sidelined through no fault of their own. Unless we go back to the provincial system, nothing will ever work.
The reality of the situation is that to develop quality black players needs time. People running cricket in our country have wasted time playing politics. In the next 3/4 years we will lose a great number of white players with the qoutas as is. It's inevitable.
Which brings me to another point, except for Bavuma, there doesn't seem to be any black batsmen who can play for the Proteas. Looking at provincial sides and the franchise system black batsmen are struggling. For the purpose of this post, blacks excludes South Africans of indian and coloured descent.
I just hope sanity prevails, but will the politicians listen? I fear not.
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
Would be travesty if that happens because as i mentioned above given the amount of talent the Proteas have generally had since readmission they have been able the mask the odd quota selection, with the team generally being among the top 2 test sides since readmission.
The only time I could remember a quota/coloured player obviously picked over a better white player where it either caused SA a game or was simply distasteful were:
- The situation in world cup semi-final this year when it seemed like a non fully fit/slightly out of form Philander was picked ahead of Abbot
- The infamous Justin Ontong incident in Sydney 2002
- During 2009/10 home series vs England, when Ntini was kept on just so he can play his 100th test although he was clearly past his best, for the better white bowler at the time Fridel De Wet
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Looked at the averages today for the one dayers,a lot of shoddy performances.
From what I saw black players had been given 5 games with below average performances,bar a few players,whereas white players we're given 1/2 games and dropped on those performances.The coloured players we're much better,altho did include some poor performances.
With this in mind it doesn't surprise me that there have been so many 300 par scores, the bowling figures of a lot of bowlers has been attrocious and they aren't getting through thier 10 overs.
What is interesting is that a lot of batsmen are now being called onto bowl some overs,
Previous I did not know some of them that they could bowl,Davids is an example.
5 games is enough to know they are not cutting,surely their must be better Black players around who have more potential than these lot.
You can pick and stick but the result is more 300 + scores.
Their are some noteable failures Ryan mclaren and Totsobie,expected more of them,altho Mclaren offered a kolpak deal with Hampshire,on form he won't be picked for s Africa,so he should take that.
From what I saw black players had been given 5 games with below average performances,bar a few players,whereas white players we're given 1/2 games and dropped on those performances.The coloured players we're much better,altho did include some poor performances.
With this in mind it doesn't surprise me that there have been so many 300 par scores, the bowling figures of a lot of bowlers has been attrocious and they aren't getting through thier 10 overs.
What is interesting is that a lot of batsmen are now being called onto bowl some overs,
Previous I did not know some of them that they could bowl,Davids is an example.
5 games is enough to know they are not cutting,surely their must be better Black players around who have more potential than these lot.
You can pick and stick but the result is more 300 + scores.
Their are some noteable failures Ryan mclaren and Totsobie,expected more of them,altho Mclaren offered a kolpak deal with Hampshire,on form he won't be picked for s Africa,so he should take that.
Marius
International Debutant
Alviro Petersen is in great form, four tons in a row. Apparently only other person to get four List A centuries on the trot is Kumar Sangakkara, so he's in good company.
Eddie Leie also bowled nicely this weekend, 5/30 against the Knights. Think he might leapfrog Phangiso in the LO spinners pecking order.
Eddie Leie also bowled nicely this weekend, 5/30 against the Knights. Think he might leapfrog Phangiso in the LO spinners pecking order.
SeamUp
International Coach
Really glad for him. Probably one of the most messed around cricketers in the country.
I would say the depth of talent may be less but there are individuals deserving of a higher level playing in it too.
Suppose we have produced good individual talent for so long, we got to hope we continue that.
It was Tuks actually and they won that university competition last year and they defended that title again now. Which is good to see. Always nice to win world tournaments.
SeamUp
International Coach
The sooner McLaren & Tsostsobe pack their bags in the better !
de Lange and Parnell top of the wicket-takers. Both bowling quickly but lack 'brains' I think.
Good 2 see Van Buurren get some runs,he may not go 2 England,despite that Sussex needs some batting talent.
Looking at the averages Seam up some very ordinary performances.Their must be some better black players in 2nd division cricket because 5 games is stacks to know you don't cut it in the big league.
Looking at the averages Seam up some very ordinary performances.Their must be some better black players in 2nd division cricket because 5 games is stacks to know you don't cut it in the big league.
Marius
International Debutant
Did KP give up his SA citizenship? Because surely he was a dual-national from birth, and the UK and SA both allow dual nationality, so I wonder if he did give it up. Seems a bit weird to do so, in my opinion.
And Cilliers stepped down quite suddenly, and at a strange time in the season. I wonder if he was pushed?
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SeamUp
International Coach
He must have & I am with you on that. Like the recent Kevin Anderson debate in how he want to keep US & SA citizenship so I don't really see the need for him to give up.
Supposedly he was really struggling to get it too.
Kevin Pietersen Verified account
@KP24 Visit to @SunfoilDolphins in jeopardy for me. Proving v difficult to get work permit thru. @HomeAffairsSA - can you help? @MbalulaFikile
There were rumours Sarel was going to lose his job after last summer but a good end to the season with the Ram Slam etcI know he re-applied but I am not sure who else did.
That region can't lose Van Wyk's, Elgar's, McLaren's. It is not like the other unions need them either. Forgetting that player development is the most important thing below international level.
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SeamUp
International Coach
I must admit, I am not a big fan of van Buuren but he finds ways to score runs and quite a bit of them. Just wonder if there will be more casualties. Finding it more difficult to get those contracts in England due to the new rules ? The Curran's acted fast and at the right time.
There certainly isn't. If there were they would definitely be playing franchise cricket and to be fair a lot playing franchise cricket are nowhere near the best XI for the region.
I like the look of Phehlukwayo but he is young and not really deserving of a spot in the Dolphins team yet. Hope his development isn't being pushed too early. Think the Titans will work well with Lungi Ngidi. Think he looks a decent find.
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