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Completely OTT ATG England Thread

Best England Team? Make 3 Votes.


  • Total voters
    9

watson

Banned
The following teams have been posted at one time or another, and my apologies if I have mucked-up someones team.

Unlike ATG teams from other countries the England XI is less straight forward and therefore the variations tend to be interesting. Incidently, in my brief tour of some obvious threads I wasn't able to find an XI nominated by PEWS, SJS, or JBMAC.

Any particular favourites? As usual, vote for 3 teams if you want to.

1. CW Open Voting XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. Ken Barrington
05. Denis Compton
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Harold Larwood
09. Jim Laker
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/58346-english-atg-team-open-voting-18.html


2. Days of Grace's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. Denis Compton
05. Kevin Pietersen
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Harold Larwood
09. Fred Trueman
10. Jim Laker
11. Sydney Barnes


3. Lillian Thomson's XI
01. Len Hutton
02. Jack Hobbs
03. Denis Compton
04. Walter Hammond
05. Colin Cowdrey
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Fred Trueman
09. Brian Statham
10. John Snow
11. Derek Underwood


4. Boy Brumby's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Herbert Sutcliffe
03. Walter Hammond
04. Douglas Jardine
05. Ken Barrington
06. Denis Compton
07. Alan Knott
08. Harold Larwood
09. Jim Laker
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes


5. Red Hill's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. W.G. Grace
03. Kumar Ranjitsinhji
04. Walter Hammond
05. Denis Compton
06. Frank Woolley
07. Ian Botham
08. Alan Knott
09. Fred Trueman
10. George Lohmann
11. Sydney Barnes


6. FredFertang's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. Denis Compton
05. Douglas Jardine
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Harold Larwood
09. Jim Laker
10. Hedley Verity
11. Brian Statham


7. NUFAN's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. Denis Compton
05. Kevin Pietersen
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Jim Laker
09. Fred Trueman
10. Frank Tyson
11. Sydney Barnes


8. Dan's XI
01. Len Hutton
02. Jack Hobbs
03. Ken Barrington
04. Denis Compton
05. Wally Hammond
06. Kevin Pietersen
07. Ian Botham
08. Allan Knott
09. Harold Larwood
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes


9. Jager's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Herbert Sutcliffe
03. Wally Hammond
04. Peter May
05. Denis Compton
06. Douglas Jardine
07. Alan Knott
08. Harold Larwood
09. Hedley Verity
10. Sydney Barnes
11. Fred Trueman


10. Ankitj's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. Denis Compton
05. Ken Barrington
06. Ian Botham
07. Les Ames
08. Fred Trueman
09. Jim Laker
10. Sydney Barnes
11. George Lohmann


11. Harsh ag's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Herbert Sutcliffe
03. Len Hutton
04. Walter Hammond
05. WG Grace
06. Tony Grieg
07. Ian Botham
08. Alan Knott
09. Jim Laker
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes


12. Watson's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Ted Dexter
04. Peter May
05. Walter Hammond
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Hedley Verity
09. Harold Larwood
10. John Snow
11. Fred Trueman


13. A Massive Zebra's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. Kumar Ranjitsinhji
05. Ken Barrington
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Wilfred Rhodes
09. Jim Laker
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes


14. AndyZaltzHair's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. Peter May
05. Denis Compton
06. Frank Woolley
07. Alan Knott
08. Harold Larwood
09. Hedley Verity
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes


15. Ed's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Herbert Sutcliffe
03. Len Hutton
04. Wally Hammond
05. Douglas Jardine
06. Ian Botham
07. Les Ames
08. Harold Larwood
09. Fred Trueman
10. Sydney Barnes
11. Jim Laker


16. Christopher Martin Jenkins' XI (BBC)
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. Denis Compton
05. Peter May
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Wilfred Rhodes
09. Jim Laker
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes


17. David Frith's XI (Historian)
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. Denis Compton
05. Ken Barrington
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Jim Laker
09. Hedley Verity
10. Harold Larwood
11. Sydney Barnes


18. Mike Selvey's XI (Guardian)
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Herbert Sutcliffe
04. Walter Hammond
05. Ken Barrington
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Harold Larwood
09. Frank Tyson
10. John Snow
11. Sydney Barnes


19. John Stern's XI (Wisden)
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. David Gower
05. Ken Barrington
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Harold Larwood
09. Alec Bedser
10. Derek Underwood
11. John Snow


20. ESPNs Cricinfo XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. Ken Barrington
05. Kevin Pietersen
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Harold Larwood
09. Derek Underwood
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes
 
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mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
foolishly only voted for one team. rookie error. I really like the teams that Include Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hammond & Hutton. I know it requires an opener to bat out of position, but these 4 beasts all averaged close to 60 so like, far out
 

watson

Banned
Considering that the team would be up against the likes of Lillee-McGrath-Miller or Marshall-Holding-Ambrose or Imran-Wasim-Waqar then I think it important that England be able to 'fight fire with fire'. Otherwise captain Hutton or captain Jardine is going to get very frustrated, and the batsman demoralised.

Hence any team with at least two of Snow-Larwood-Trueman-Tyson caught my eye first.
 

The Battlers Prince

International Vice-Captain
Its interesting that Botham gets a spot in almost every team. Yet I'm not sure he'd get in many other ATG sides of other countries. He wouldn't make Aus, WI, Pak, and it would be a close call for NZ or India. For the oldest of all cricket nations it says something of how the Poms play the game and how Botham played it
 

watson

Banned
Its interesting that Botham gets a spot in almost every team. Yet I'm not sure he'd get in many other ATG sides of other countries. He wouldn't make Aus, WI, Pak, and it would be a close call for NZ or India. For the oldest of all cricket nations it says something of how the Poms play the game and how Botham played it
It's true that Botham adds that extra 'winning instinct' to the team, but there's probably more to his selection than that.

If the attack is Marshall-Holding-Ambrose-Gibbs then the general impression would be that the fifth bowler is an added bonus.

I happen to think that an attack like Larwood-Trueman-Barnes-Laker in exceptionally strong. However, I can understand the perception that the English attack is not quite up to par relative to other teams. Hence, the eagerness to include a strong 5th bowler like Botham in the top 6 at the expense of an ATG batsman who is merely competent with the ball.

The other reason to bat Botham at No.6 is that it allows 2 spinners to be picked. Laker and Verity both deserve to be in the side, so why not have them both? It is much the same thinking as batting Miller in the top order for Australia. This allows both Warne and O'Reilly to be picked.
 
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Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Red Hill's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. W.G. Grace
03. Kumar Ranjitsinhji
04. Walter Hammond
05. Denis Compton
06. Frank Woolley
07. Ian Botham
08. Alan Knott
09. Fred Trueman
10. George Lohmann
11. Sydney Barnes
I like my team. As of now, I'd definitely include Hutton, who I now consider the GOAT opener. I'd also like to include May, Laker and Larwood, but I have trouble seeing who they'd displace.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Bedser too. IMO the England ATG XI is the least straightforward.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Bedser too. IMO the England ATG XI is the least straightforward.

My XI as posted by Watson is:

01. Jack Hobbs
02. W.G. Grace
03. Kumar Ranjitsinhji
04. Walter Hammond
05. Denis Compton
06. Frank Woolley
07. Ian Botham
08. Alan Knott
09. Fred Trueman
10. George Lohmann
11. Sydney Barnes

But it's very conceivable that the following would beat them.

Hutton
Sutcliffe
Barrington
May
Pietersen
Ames
Flintoff
Verity
Larwood
Laker
Bedser


Is it that the English second XI is closer to their first XI than any other nation? I reckon.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Its interesting that Botham gets a spot in almost every team. Yet I'm not sure he'd get in many other ATG sides of other countries. He wouldn't make Aus, WI, Pak, and it would be a close call for NZ or India. For the oldest of all cricket nations it says something of how the Poms play the game and how Botham played it
I can just about see your argument if you are obsessed with playing six specialist batsmen and just four bowlers, but I'd pick him for India, Pakistan and NZ without question, and would possibly irrationally judge someone who didn't.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Its interesting that Botham gets a spot in almost every team. Yet I'm not sure he'd get in many other ATG sides of other countries. He wouldn't make Aus, WI, Pak, and it would be a close call for NZ or India. For the oldest of all cricket nations it says something of how the Poms play the game and how Botham played it
Botham wouldn't make a WI XI because they've got a ton of quicks who were better than him, a ton of brilliant middle order bats, and Sobers, who is gonna bat top six and be fifth bowler anyway.

He might make an Aus XI on the same basis that Miller might- legit third quick that can bat top 6 that allows O'Reilly and Warne to play in tandem.

He wouldn't make a Pakistani XI because Imran is gonna do the same job better and he isn't going to displace Wasim or Waqar with Imran already there.

He'd easily make a NZ team as third quick- all rounder. Would displace John Reid in cricinfo's team easily IMO.

He walks into India's ATG XI. Is pretty equivalent to Kapil as a cricketer and would easily be India's second greatest quick.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Botham wouldn't make a WI XI because they've got a ton of quicks who were better than him, a ton of brilliant middle order bats, and Sobers, who is gonna bat top six and be fifth bowler anyway.

He might make an Aus XI on the same basis that Miller might- legit third quick that can bat top 6 that allows O'Reilly and Warne to play in tandem.

He wouldn't make a Pakistani XI because Imran is gonna do the same job better and he isn't going to displace Wasim or Waqar with Imran already there.

He'd easily make a NZ team as third quick- all rounder. Would displace John Reid in cricinfo's team easily IMO.

He walks into India's ATG XI. Is pretty equivalent to Kapil as a cricketer and would easily be India's second greatest quick.
Botham is nowhere near an Aussie ATG XI. Miller the all-rounder - or Benaud if you will. Doesn't come close to being better than the 3rd or 4th best seamer Australia's produced.

Wouldn't even pick him for NZ tbh. Maybe as 4th seamer assuming an attack of Hadlee-Bond-Cowie + Vettori. Enough batting when you consider Hadlee and Vettori as 7/8. Would rather fit in one of Boult or Taylor for more quick options if that were the case. If it came down to him being 5th bowler vs Reid, I'd take Reid because he was a better bat and could also bowl some spin.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Botham is nowhere near an Aussie ATG XI. Miller the all-rounder - or Benaud if you will. Doesn't come close to being better than the 3rd or 4th best seamer Australia's produced.

Wouldn't even pick him for NZ tbh. Maybe as 4th seamer assuming an attack of Hadlee-Bond-Cowie + Vettori. Enough batting when you consider Hadlee and Vettori as 7/8. Would rather fit in one of Boult or Taylor for more quick options if that were the case. If it came down to him being 5th bowler vs Reid, I'd take Reid because he was a better bat and could also bowl some spin.
I don't disagree necessarily, but Botham plays the same role as Miller did, and I'd have him as a cricketer over Reid any day,
 

watson

Banned
Glad that Fred picked Statham as he's seems to be very underated. Possible because people think he's slower than he really was.

I still slightly prefer Larwood, Snow, and Trueman though.
 
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The Battlers Prince

International Vice-Captain
I don't disagree necessarily, but Botham plays the same role as Miller did, and I'd have him as a cricketer over Reid any day,
Absolutely, as far as X factor goes Beefy had it, similar to Miller where stats are not really good at measuring the quality of the player. But I wouldn't pick him over Miller or Noble for an Aussie XI.
As for NZ or India I see how he's close to making those teams. India I was thinking AR spot which would be close, but he'd make it as a bowler alone. NZ is still too close to put him in every time.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Do we assume that Bedser is a lock-in for your team PEWs? I think that you would include WG and Briggs as well.

Do you have a favoured XI?
Whether or not I included Grace would come down to whether it was an actual England Test XI or just an English Players XI. I rate Grace the second greatest batsman of all time, but in terms of just Test batting he's not quite as high for me and would probably miss out. The confusion over whether it's one question or the other and my mixed feelings over whether or not I want to pick Botham are probably why I've never actually posted a team here for you to dig up. :p

I do think Briggs was under-rated -- I'd pick him if I wanted a second spinner -- but I still think I'd go with two genuine seamers plus Barnes and Laker.

1. Hobbs
2. Grace if based on all cricket, Hutton if only based on Tests
3. Hammond
4. Compton
5. Barrington
6. Not sure whether I want to pick Botham, or pick three openers and change the batting order, or pick Cowdrey
7. Knott
8. Laker
9. Trueman
10. Bedser
11. Barnes
 
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watson

Banned
My intuition is to leave Botham out, play an ATG batsman at 6, and be happy with 4 front line bowlers plus Dexter/Hammond who actually weren't that bad. If you had the likes of Hadlee coming in at No.8 after Knott/Ames then that might swing things in favour of picking Botham. But with Verity or Larwood being the best tailenders (unless you pick Tate), then 6 to 11 looks quite vulnerable over all. In recent years we've seen the value of lower order runs, but with most of the above England XIs we are looking at a probable collapse once 5 or 6 wickets are down.

But because Botham is such an icon you are completely going against the cricketing zeitgeist if you leave him out of any England XI. And understandably so.

If I were to rethink then my team might be;

12. Watson's XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Ted Dexter
04. Peter May
05. Walter Hammond
06. Denis Compton
07. Alan Knott
08. Hedley Verity
09. Alec Bedser
10. John Snow
11. Fred Trueman

Better balanced?
 
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