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Completely OTT ATG England Thread
- Thread starter watson
- Start date
ImpatientLime
International Regular
if you're worried about englands lower order then you have to pick ames or dare i say it, prior over one of the superior gloveman.
two batsman of undoubted quality who greatly strengthen the batting.
two batsman of undoubted quality who greatly strengthen the batting.
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Knott's as good as Prior. Ames is a good alternative if you want a wk-batsman.
watson
Banned
Les Ames averaged 27.00 against Australia. Not overly exciting.
Ames did average 58.57 against NZ, but during the 1930s I'm not overly excited about that either. Especially as Cowie didn't feature during his 2 centuries.
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The Battlers Prince
International Vice-Captain
True, but the runs he did score against Australia were against either Grimmett or O'Reilly or both. Ames scored thousands of runs at home in First Class against so many great bowlers.
the big bambino
International Captain
Ames' singular failure as a bat was against Australia in Australia. He succeeded against everyone and everywhere else. All players have a bad stat they'd like to hide away like a mad uncle. Ames has less reason to be embarrassed than most.
His biggest fault was his myopia assessing the greatness of fellow Kent players.
His biggest fault was his myopia assessing the greatness of fellow Kent players.
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The question of Botham, like Thomson for Australia, is whether you're picking "peak player" or "whole test career". After 50 tests Botham was averaging almost 37 with the bat and just under 23 with the ball.
When I put him in these sides, I tend to think I'm picking the slim, fit, Botham who could swing it late both ways at genuine pace, not the peroxided, big bellied medium pacer he became.
When I put him in these sides, I tend to think I'm picking the slim, fit, Botham who could swing it late both ways at genuine pace, not the peroxided, big bellied medium pacer he became.
AndyZaltzHair
Hall of Fame Member
the other one was better imo
watson
Banned
That's a good reason to play Botham at No.6 and give the attack extra depth.
However, even if assume Botham to be in his prime I don't think that he is in the same class as Larwood, Trueman, Snow, Bedser, or Barnes. Not far off, but on bowling alone Botham lacks the same fire-power. Although, I dare say it would be possible to drag up some stats to try and prove otherwise.
Botham plays at No.6 and is the 3rd or 4th seamer, or becomes the 12th man.
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Interesting and slightly surprising to see neither Willis or Anderson in any of the sides. I don't think I would pick them either but I do think they belong in the discussion. For me 9 names come quite easily with my only doubt being Barrington. I can see the logic of leaving out Botham but really he just has to be in it. Grace would be an automatic choice if we were not just talking Test cricket.
Hobbs
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Compton
Botham
Knott
Trueman
Barnes
That leaves two spots. One to a spinner, although I suppose you could just go with Barnes but it would seem a bit strange not to have another one. Don't really have strong opinions on who it should be, any of Laker, Vertiy or Underwood. Probably Laker but I might personally side with Verity.
Then there are loads of candidates for the last spot. Most people seem to go with Larwood and I can easily go along with that but I do think Anderson and Willis are real contenders, hell maybe even Broad in a couple of years. I suppose you have to think about who is number 8 so one of those last two places needs taking by someone who was decent with the bat.
Hobbs
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Compton
Botham
Knott
Trueman
Barnes
That leaves two spots. One to a spinner, although I suppose you could just go with Barnes but it would seem a bit strange not to have another one. Don't really have strong opinions on who it should be, any of Laker, Vertiy or Underwood. Probably Laker but I might personally side with Verity.
Then there are loads of candidates for the last spot. Most people seem to go with Larwood and I can easily go along with that but I do think Anderson and Willis are real contenders, hell maybe even Broad in a couple of years. I suppose you have to think about who is number 8 so one of those last two places needs taking by someone who was decent with the bat.
watson
Banned
With Botham, Knott, Trueman and Barnes in the latter half of the batting order you almost have to pick Verity and Larwood at 8 & 9 to shore-up the tail. If you pick Underwood and Willis for example, then a final 4 of Trueman-Underwood-Barnes-Willis would be unacceptably weak.
I like your idea of possibly including Broad in an ATG team as he is an exceptional bowler and a natural No.8 - as is Maurice Tate.
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watson
Banned
Incidently, the top 10 best averages for English bowlers at No.8, 10 Tests or more, are;
1. Craig White - 400 runs at 50.00
2. Walter Robins - 390 runs at 32.50
3. John Emburey - 752 runs at 27.85
4. Stuart Broad - 1128 runs at 24.00
5. Chris Lewis - 523 runs 22.77
6. Maurice Tate - 446 runs at 22.30
7. Ashley Giles - 808 runs at 21.83
8. Tim Bresnan - 346 runs at 21.62
9. Johnny Wardle - 322 runs at 21.46
10. Phil De Freitas - 422 at 21.10
1. Craig White - 400 runs at 50.00
2. Walter Robins - 390 runs at 32.50
3. John Emburey - 752 runs at 27.85
4. Stuart Broad - 1128 runs at 24.00
5. Chris Lewis - 523 runs 22.77
6. Maurice Tate - 446 runs at 22.30
7. Ashley Giles - 808 runs at 21.83
8. Tim Bresnan - 346 runs at 21.62
9. Johnny Wardle - 322 runs at 21.46
10. Phil De Freitas - 422 at 21.10
Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
If you have a man with over 5000 runs, 14 centuries and 383 wickets you pick him and build around it not scratch around wondering if he should get in. Of course the last 5 years were pants, but when people name Muhammad Ali as the greatest ever boxer they're not referring to the shuffling wreck that fought Holmes and Berbick.
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
But if someone feels all of Trueman, Larwood, Barnes, and Snow are better bowlers than Botham (not to mention Bedser), then having six batsmen and four bowlers with Hammond serving as the 5th bowler may yield a better team.
For example, removing Miller from the Aussie team and having Steve Waugh at number 6 (and him and Border sharing 5th bowling duties) may strengthen the side from one perspective.
As has been pointed out, you really only need one or two ATG bowlers to be performing awesomely to destroy any all star batting line up (as has been seen many times).