Wisden on Murali's Action

[watson]

This article pissed me off massively. Something about the tone makes you think that Murali never proved the veracity of his action to everybody's satisfaction.

Wisden - Tea with Murali

I do have a soft spot for Murali, but the presumptious 'Muralism' in the OP deserved the same kind of short shrift in return tbh.

 

[indiaholic]

Please spare me your condescension... If I was making a Tendulkar vs Lara thread I would give equal weight to all sides of the argument not when I am criticising an article about hacks hoping to gain insights by pressing Murali's arm to a table.

 

[watson]

Please spare me your condescension... If I was making a Tendulkar vs Lara thread I would give equal weight to all sides of the argument not when I am criticising an article about hacks hoping to gain insights by pressing Murali's arm to a table.

Nope, the article was obviously fair and presented both sides of the argument. There's actually not a lot in it to get emotional about.

 

[harsh.ag]

Nope, the article was obviously fair and presented both sides of the argument. There's actually not a lot in it to get emotional about.

Yeah, it's like when an article presents both sides of global warming. Here is John Oliver accurately summarizing what it should really be like:

 

[indiaholic]

I know I'm inviting a world of hate for bringing this up, but does anyone else think it's a little weird that Murali's average bowl speed during his 2004 action test was about 65-70 kmh?

If there's an explanation for it then I'm open to it. But if not, then that strikes me as the kind of thing that would be a serious red flag under today's testing regime.

Yep the testing in 2004 did not replicate match conditions.. So they did tests again in 2006. news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/4680246.stm

 

[Pratters]

Holding and Bedi believe for long it's impossible to bowl the doosra. Here's Holding on it. Also says during Channel 4 testing Murali wasn't spinning the ball as much as he does during the matches.

 

[indiaholic]

The channel 4 testing was the one with the brace? If he is wearing a brace with a steel rod that will impact his pace and spin no?

 

[Pratters]

Shoaib chucking aspect. RP v Shoaib. Again shown by Holding.

 

[Pratters]

I remember once Boycott going bonkers regarding the doosra as well. He said he could never understand how it can be done without chucking it.

 

[Pratters]

The channel 4 testing was the one with the brace? If he is wearing a brace with a steel rod that will impact his pace and spin no?

Yeah.

 

[harsh.ag]

An extensive ICC study, the results of which were released in November 2004, was conducted to investigate the "chucking issue". A laboratory kinematic analysis of 42 non-Test playing bowlers done by Ferdinands and Kersting (2004) established that the 5° limit for slow and spin bowlers was particularly impractical.[SUP]
[/SUP]
Due to the overwhelming scientific findings, researchers recommended that a flat rate of 15° tolerable elbow extension be used to define a preliminary demarcation point between bowling and throwing. A panel of former Test players consisting of Aravinda de Silva, Angus Fraser, Michael Holding, Tony Lewis, Tim May and the ICC's Dave Richardson, with the assistance of several biomechanical experts, stated that 99% of all bowlers in the history of cricket straighten their arms when bowling. Only one player tested (part-time bowler Ramnaresh Sarwan) reportedly did not transgress the pre 2000 rules. Many of these reports have controversially not been published and as such, the 99% figure stated has yet to be proved.

On 2 February 2006, Muralitharan underwent a fourth round of biomechanical testing. There had been criticism that the previous round of tests in July 2004 did not replicate match conditions due to a slower bowling speed in the laboratory tests. The results showed that the average elbow flexation while bowling the 'doosra' delivery was 12.2 degrees, at an average of 53.75 mph (86.50 km/h). The average for his off-break was 12.9 degrees at 59.03 mph (95.00 km/h).

ICC general manager Dave Richardson stated that the scientific evidence presented by biomechanists Professor Bruce Elliot, Dr Paul Hurrion and Mr Marc Portuswith was overwhelming and clarified that "Some bowlers, even those not suspected of having flawed actions, were found likely to be straightening their arms by 11 or 12 degrees. And at the same time, some bowlers that may appear to be throwing may be hyper-extending or bowl with permanently bent elbows. Under a strict interpretation of the law, they were breaking the rules – but if we ruled out every bowler that did that then there would be no bowlers left."

Michael Holding, the former West Indian fast bowler was also a critic of Muralitharan, but withdrew his criticisms under the light of the tests carried out. Holding had been quoted as being in "110% agreement" with Bedi, who likened Murali's action to a "javelin throw" and more recently, compared to a "shot putter". Following the ICC study, as a member of the panel that conducted the study, Holding stated, "The scientific evidence is overwhelming ... When bowlers who to the naked eye look to have pure actions are thoroughly analysed with the sophisticated technology now in place, they are likely to be shown as straightening their arm by 11 and in some cases 12 degrees. Under a strict interpretation of the Law, these players are breaking the rules. The game needs to deal with this reality and make its judgment as to how it accommodates this fact."

Vincent Barnes in an interview argues that Bruce Elliott, the UWA professor who is also the ICC biomechanist, had made an interesting discovery in his dealings with finger spinners. "He said he had found that a lot of bowlers from the subcontinent could bowl the doosra legally, but not Caucasian bowlers."

Channel 4 "Brace"

TV presenter Mark Nicholas who tried the brace himself, confirmed that "There is no way an arm can be bent, or flexed, when it is in this brace." All three balls reacted in the same way as when bowled without the brace. They were not bowled quite so fast because the weight of the brace restricts the speed of Muralitharan's shoulder rotation, but the spin was still there.With the brace on, there still appeared to be a jerk in his action. When studying the film at varying speeds, it still appeared as if he straightened his arm, even though the brace makes it impossible to do so. His unique shoulder rotation and amazing wrist action seem to create the illusion that he straightens his arm.
The off-spinner said the exercise was to convince a sceptical public rather than sway an ICC investigation into bowling actions launched after he was reported by match referee Chris Broad for his doosra delivery in March 2004, the third time action was taken on his bowling. In an interview for August 2004 edition of Wisden Asia Cricket, Muralitharan stated "I think it will prove a point to those who had said that it was physically impossible to bowl a ball that turned the other way. I proved that it was possible to bowl the doosra without bending the arm."[SUP][[/SUP]

 

[Pratters]

Not sure Holding has changed his view on Murali and doosra given he says doosras are chucked in 2014 in the link I posted.

 

[Pratters]

Would request people to try and bowl the doosra yourself. Except the carrom ball one, isn't it impossible to do it without chucking? When I used to bowl offies (was a leg spinner ftr), could bowl the straight one but to go the other way - could never imagine it being bowled without chucking it.

 

[harsh.ag]

Would request people to try and bowl the doosra yourself. Except the carrom ball one, isn't it impossible to do it without chucking? When I used to bowl offies (was a leg spinner ftr), could bowl the straight one but to go the other way - could never imagine it being bowled without chucking it.

Read the last two lines of my last post.

 

[Pratters]

How much is it turning with the brace really? As Holding said, it didn't turn much and they had to draw lines. I am also not sure you cannot straighten the arm a little in the brace. There is space inside a brace to move arm a little.

 

[Pratters]

Also why don't you try bowling the doosra yourself without chucking it Harsh?

 

[harsh.ag]

Dude I didn't say anyone could bowl it legally. But these tests and

Vincent Barnes in an interview arguesthat Bruce Elliott, the UWA professor who is also the ICC biomechanist, had made an interesting discovery in his dealings with finger spinners. "He said he had found that a lot of bowlers from the subcontinent could bowl the doosra legally, but not Caucasian bowlers."

and Murali's brace doosra make me think that it can be done legally by someone who has a lot of skill and practice under his belt.

 

[Pratters]

I'll add this, the 15 degree rule was said to be enforced as that's what is visible to the naked eye. I bought it then but looks suspicious now. I would love to see some scientific proof that tells 15 degrees or more is what is visible to the naked eye. Given

Secondly given Murali was showing 11-12 degrees it seems accomodative.

 

[harsh.ag]

I'll add this, the 15 degree rule was said to be enforced as that's what is visible to the naked eye. I bought it then but looks suspicious now. I would love to see some scientific proof that tells 15 degrees or more is what is visible to the naked eye. Given

Secondly given Murali was showing 11-12 degrees it seems accomodative.

ICC general manager Dave Richardson stated that the scientific evidence presented by biomechanists Professor Bruce Elliot, Dr Paul Hurrion and Mr Marc Portuswith was overwhelming and clarified that "Some bowlers, even those not suspected of having flawed actions, were found likely to be straightening their arms by 11 or 12 degrees. And at the same time, some bowlers that may appear to be throwing may be hyper-extending or bowl with permanently bent elbows. Under a strict interpretation of the law, they were breaking the rules – but if we ruled out every bowler that did that then there would be no bowlers left."

Are you not reading stuff I am posting?

 

[Pratters]

Who are these bowlers?