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How did Bradman get as good as he did?

TheJediBrah

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Only thing is I don;t believe he will average 100 if he played under today's conditions, even if grew in the system. The talent pool is much larger, because the number of players taking up cricket has exponentially increased when it comes to test cricket. I believe standard of cricket now is higher than that of 40s.

Average of 75 today, that would be my guess.
This and any attempt at trying to "guess" what Bradman would average now is beyond stupid

"Everyone's better now so he wouldn't do as well" = Stupid Logic. If everyone is better now because of training, conditions, coaching or whatever then he would have access to all those same advantages.

If you transported 1930s Bradman to 2015 with a Time Machine, maybe, but it would still be stupid to guess.
 

TheJediBrah

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You probably need to differentiate caught behind and in front of the wicket.
It would still be a stupid waste of time. Not getting out caught makes you a better batsman!

If you get rid of the caught dismissals of those guys to calculate new averages, it would only be logical to take away all the runs they scored from balls hit in the air as well. Otherwise you're just going full ******
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Oh boy here we go.
Its starting.

By that I mean - if possible let's not go anywhere near Tendulkar vs Bradman type discussions or how Bradman compares to the best batsman of today based on how acrimonious they turned out to be in the past.

That said I am not a mod so feel free to ignore me.
 
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AldoRaine18

State Vice-Captain
It would still be a stupid waste of time. Not getting out caught makes you a better batsman!

If you get rid of the caught dismissals of those guys to calculate new averages, it would only be logical to take away all the runs they scored from balls hit in the air as well. Otherwise you're just going full ******
No I meant to see how much his policy of playing it along the ground actually improved his chances of getting out compared to others. If got caught by the keeper/slips more often and not in the outfield then it would probably have some merit, but then you'd have to conduct a similar search for all others being compared..
 

TheJediBrah

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No I meant to see how much his policy of playing it along the ground actually improved his chances of getting out compared to others. If got caught by the keeper/slips more often and not in the outfield then it would probably have some merit, but then you'd have to conduct a similar search for all others being compared..
Not really. He could have gotten caught just as often in terms of % of dismissals, but a lot less in terms of "per runs made" or "per time at the crease" as a result of hitting the ball along the ground.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
This and any attempt at trying to "guess" what Bradman would average now is beyond stupid

"Everyone's better now so he wouldn't do as well" = Stupid Logic. If everyone is better now because of training, conditions, coaching or whatever then he would have access to all those same advantages.

If you transported 1930s Bradman to 2015 with a Time Machine, maybe, but it would still be stupid to guess.
Yeah, but fail to appreciate that the number of players in FCC is exponentialy large than in 1930s, hence the talent pool. Better gtraining, technique, food and etc, will not only make everyone better, but narrow down the gap between the best and the rest. Failing to understand these simple facts is, well, beyond stupid.
 

OverratedSanity

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Yeah, but fail to appreciate that the number of players in FCC is exponentialy large than in 1930s, hence the talent pool. Better gtraining, technique, food and etc, will not only make everyone better, but narrow down the gap between the best and the rest. Failing to understand these simple facts is, well, beyond stupid.
No, that's not what you were saying though. You were arguing a larger talent pool will somehow make Bradman worse.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
People before Bradman's time wouldn't have believed a batsman could average 100 either. If guys like Sanga, AB, Ponting, Kallis can have extended periods of time where they average 70+ I have no idea why Bradman can't average a heck of a lot more.
Extended periods may mean just half a decade mostly a decade. Bradman, as shown in his playing days maintained a constant, career long purple patch. And from that comes the average of 75.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
No, that's not what you were saying though. You were arguing a larger talent pool will somehow make Bradman worse.
No, it will narrow the gap between him and the rest. Relatively it will appear to make him worse, but everybody will improve if trained under today's conditions, but the rest will gain more than Bradman. Additionally he will have to face more uber-talented opponents than during his playing days.
 

Chrish

International Debutant
If you think you can properly rate Bradman only after watching him against West Indian pace quartet at it's peak, then you must apply similar barometer to every batsman.

As a rabid fan of great fast bowlers & great fast bowling, I can honestly tell that if you strip apart the stats of practically every great batsman, you could find even worse holes in their achievements than Bradman's.
Back in late 90s, I remember thinking about Tendulkar - how can this guy be called the best ever in the modern era when his averages in practically every series against the toughest fast bowling attacks his side faced back then (Donald/McGrath/Akram led attacks) are so modest? IIRC, he never had a single stellar series against attacks led by any of these great fast bowlers (when I say stellar I mean the kind of series he had against Warne in 98).

Not just Tendulkar, same thing could be shown about Lara or any other great batsman too.

From watching the few highlight videos of the Bodyline series, to me facing Larwood looked every bit as tough as facing any great fast bowler in his prime (bodyline field placement and unlimited bumpers further exacerbate it) . It certainly didn't look "semi-professional". I think it was a phenomenal achievement on Bradman's part to average 50+ in that series.

It doesn't make sense to show that bowling averages of 30s/40s were worse than 90s, therefore Bradman had an easier time, since Bradman himself would have been partly responsible for making those bowling averages worse.
I have seen several posters here who believe the game was fully professional in 30s and nothing much has changed since then. I can never agree to that notion having seen 50 different clips from 30/40/50s. I am not trying to make a case for other batsmen > Bradman.. No, that's not the intention.. All I am saying is it's impossible to rate Bradman compared to modern day batsmen.

The standard was definitely much lower. The game has evolved to a great extent and it's impossible to compare players based on average criteria. There is no way to tell whether he would average 35 or 105 had he played in 70s/80s/90s (that too with protection/ smaller boundaries/ bigger bats etc.). The game is very much different at this stage.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
I think the other question is 'does it really matter'?

Relative vs. absolute debate woo

*leaves thread*
 

Spark

Global Moderator
There is no way to tell whether he would average 35 or 105 had he played in 70s/80s/90s (that too with protection/ smaller boundaries/ bigger bats etc.).
I think it's very easy to tell that he would have averaged more than 35.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Was probably motivated by the goal of become a means by which Indians could be trolled forever.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I have seen several posters here who believe the game was fully professional in 30s and nothing much has changed since then. I can never agree to that notion having seen 50 different clips from 30/40/50s. I am not trying to make a case for other batsmen > Bradman.. No, that's not the intention.. All I am saying is it's impossible to rate Bradman compared to modern day batsmen.

The standard was definitely much lower. The game has evolved to a great extent and it's impossible to compare players based on average criteria. There is no way to tell whether he would average 35 or 105 had he played in 70s/80s/90s (that too with protection/ smaller boundaries/ bigger bats etc.). The game is very much different at this stage.
The overlap in players says a lot. A great player in Bradman's time, was still a great player in the generation after, and so and and so on. You could go something like Harvey > Sobers > Gavaskar > Richards > Tendulkar > Sangakkara > X. The averages bowling and batting, decade to decade, only change slightly. A few runs here and there.

That one guy is almost 40-50 runs better on average than every other batsman in history is not made up by that slight improvement, generation to generation. The sport now is, to a great extent, the same one as Bradman played. It's very comparable. The amateur > pro argument doesn't wash for me either. How many amateur players in any sport are twice as great as the next best guy for 20 years?

There'll probably simply never be another batsman like him. He's so far ahead that instances of trying to rationalise it, smack of demeaning and petty arguing. If you argued that any other batsman in history - Tendulkar or Sobers - should have 10 points chopped off their average to 'properly' evaluate them you'd be laughed at, at best, and probably insulted at worst. Yet people don't even think about chopping 20-30 points off Bradman's average not realising how huge that is - yet it still means he's by far the best batsman ever.
 
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pardus

School Boy/Girl Captain
I'd rather like to get my reference point to late 90s and early 2000s, where bowlers ruled the roost and SRT, Lara and Ponting were magical. I don't think none of the bowlers Bradman faced were as good as top tier of bowlers of late 90s and early 2000s (Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Pollock, DeVilliers, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, McGrath, Bond, Murali, Warne, Kumble and Saqlain). Early 80s had lot of pace with them but were rather thin on spin bowling. 95 - 2005 was the era of best of the bowlers in cricket.
Spin bowling was superior in the 90s. To me pace bowling was better during mid 70s to mid 80s. Cricketing rules were much more batsmen friendly in the 90s compared to 80s or 70s. One bouncer per over limit was enforced in 1991 (essentially to somehow stop the continuous West Indian domination of the sport). It did alter Test cricket significantly. It practically ended an almost a 2 decade total domination of fast bowlers in Test cricket (started by Lillee-Thommo in the early 70s). Navjot Sidhu toured West Indies in 1988 and 1997, and Windies bowling attack was pretty much identical in both occasions (Ambrose, Walsh & Bishop and you can replace Marshall in 88 with Franklyn Rose, the highest wicket taker in 97), but Sidhu clearly mentioned that batting was much tougher in 1988 than it was in 1997. His own batting figures in both the series clearly reveal it. Pitches in the caribbean were much faster in the 1980s (especially Jamaica). But mainly the rules in 1980s weren't strong enough to protect batsmen. It was practically impossible for a fast bowler in the 90s to do something like this or this or this or this .

Not that fast bowlers in 90s were incapable, but because rules were stricter/clearer and the umpires were stronger.
 
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pardus

School Boy/Girl Captain
I have seen several posters here who believe the game was fully professional in 30s and nothing much has changed since then. I can never agree to that notion having seen 50 different clips from 30/40/50s. I am not trying to make a case for other batsmen > Bradman.. No, that's not the intention.. All I am saying is it's impossible to rate Bradman compared to modern day batsmen.

The standard was definitely much lower. The game has evolved to a great extent and it's impossible to compare players based on average criteria. There is no way to tell whether he would average 35 or 105 had he played in 70s/80s/90s (that too with protection/ smaller boundaries/ bigger bats etc.). The game is very much different at this stage.
This actually applies to every era, not just 1930s. IMO, if anything the difference in the game was higher from early 1970s to 1990s, than from 1930s to early 1970s. A lot more happened in the game from 1970s to 1990s (ODI invention, Kerry Packer's series responsible for invention of the helmet and other protection, game became professional and later hugely commercial, continuous alteration of rules in all formats to make the game much more batsman friendly). In early 1970s there were no helmets, not just the bats even the available, limited protection was much heavier back then, no strong bumper rules (at least on paper - it was upto the umpires to warn the bowlers for intimidatory bowling - some umpires did while some didn't) to protect the batsmen. And then you had bowlers like Lillee, Thommo, Holding & Roberts.

Just to give you by example how different the game was in 1970s compared to 1990s. In Jamaica, 1976, Indian captain Bishen Singh Bedi practically forfeited the Test match for the fear of life and limb of his batsmen. Back then, it was understandable why Bedi did what he did. I cannot imagine a captain forfeiting a Test match today because of the fear of his batsmen getting hit nor can I imagine a batting line up today facing what the Indian team back then was subjected to in that Test (unlimited supply of bouncers and liberal dose of beamers by Holding as well - not surprising Gavaskar got bowled by a yorker).

When India toured West Indies in 1997, there was no semblance to their earlier tours. The pitches were generally deader than dead. Except for Barbados. In first innings of the Barbados match, Tendulkar and Dravid scored very skilful half centuries to rescue India from a rather precarious position. While appreciating their knocks, an Indian cricket writer quickly cautioned that as good as the knocks by Dravid & Tendulkar were, they can never be compared to the half centuries scored by Indian openers Gavaskar & Gaekwad in the 1976 Test match at Jamaica. Because neither Tendulkar nor Dravid had to go through the sheer threat of life & limb that their batsmen in 1976 had faced.

During the miniscule highlights provided during the Doordarshan Samachar those days, cricket writer Raju Bharatan had caught a glimpse of a vicious beamer rearing for the head of Gavaskar. Years later he wrote in Sportstar, “I asked Sunil [Gavaskar] once he was back in India, ‘That head-hunting beamer we saw you barely manage to evade at Sabina Park … how did it feel to measure up to it from Holding?’

“‘Which beamer?’ Sunil slyly sought to know… ‘There were so many of them bowled at us. Both —Holding and Daniel bowled them regularly. Their technique was simple — mix a beamer with two-three bouncers in an over. Then, having shaken the batsman’s confidence, produce a fast straight yorker to go through his defence. I did ask wicket-keeper Deryck Murray why they were still after me when they had virtually won that Sabina Park decider with three of our key men injured. Deryck said he had spoken to Clive about it, but they had simply been asked to turn their eyes away if they did not want to look!”

The fast bowling machine of the West Indies had been launched. It went on to rule the world for 19 years.


Just as a spectator who watched the game intently in 1980s and 1990s, the difference was huge even between 1980s and 1990s. Within just one decade, the change was clearly noticeable. The element of physical courage for a batsman (which was an absolute necessity in 1980s, especially against the Windies) was no longer that important a factor. Temperament for batsmen in Test cricket became more important in 1990s (since batsmen grew up with ODI cricket).
 
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zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
the batting averages in 1940s are the highest of all the decades. So perhaps there's some truth in pitches being flat and batting friendly back then
Sorry to pick up this point from what was a well-balanced post, but the Don played a minority of his cricket in the 1940s and at that time he was pushing 40 (so averaging over 100 was pretty impressive).

In the 1930s, when he played most of his cricket, he scored 4,625 runs in 33 Tests at an average of 102.77. The figures suggest that the 1930s were a relatively hard decade for batting.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Shall I post my favourite bar chart? Unless someone objects, the bar chart is getting posted again.
 

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