Underrated players

[adub]

[Stuart MacGill. Probably remembered as "that guy who wasn't quite as good as Warne." IIRC he got to 200 Test wickets faster than any other spinner in the history of the game. Should definitely be in the top 10 of all time discussion, quite possibly even top 5. But he wasn't as good as Warne, so we kind of forget about him.]

Always loved me some MacGilla. For a while there after Warne's shoulder gave out he was definitely the better weapon. Obviously a completely different type of bowler to Warne, but never ever dull. Because the SCG is my home ground I got to see him at his best.

 

[Prince EWS]

Why does Neil Harvey so rarely get a mention when the ATGs are discussed?

All his teammates talked of him in reverential terms and by all accounts he was a magnificent fielder. Doubtless the statsmongers can't get beyond his average being a mere 48, but he played a great deal on some bowlers' wickets, against some great bowling attacks and with playing conditions that often didn't favour him.

For me he's the most underrated of them all, but who else joins him in an Underrated XI?

I think he's even under-rated purely from a statistical standpoint. A proper analysis of the statistics will show largely what you said -- that his average of 48 was worth more during the games he played than it would be through most other players' careers, and he effectively got 15 years worth of Test cricket in as well.

Even just on stats alone I think I'd put him ahead of every Australian batsman I've seen in my lifetime, and that's before we even go into the contemporary accounts.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

The biggest hole in Harvey's record was his dreadful series in 1956 - I suspect his retort to that would be that he did the best he could given the raging bunsens that were served up for Laker and Lock - would be a whinging crim if he did make that complaint of course (though almost certainly a justifiably whinging crim)

it is also said he was demotivated for a while as he didn't get the captaincy and remained so until Richie got the job when, because he was such a mate of Richie's, he found his mojo again - not sure though if that was when Johnson got the job, or when Craig did, which just goes to underline the fact that, Murali apart, he must be the most interesting cricketer never to have had a proper biography written about him

I'd like to remind you Fred, that the youngster heaped the runs on Laker in '48 at Leeds when the bloody Poms put a good cricket wicket down to play on. Bloody Poms

 

[the big bambino]

Anil Kumble actually has a fine record against stronger nations and, historically, is one of best spin bowlers on Australian pitches.

There are explanations for Harvey's ave v Eng in Eng. Pitches in England in the 50s were poor (for batting - they seemed to deteriorate around the world in that decade). England possessed Bedser, Laker, Lock, Trueman and Statham in that time (Tyson being little account on his own pitches and at any time after his brief typhoon).

The only batsmen who out performed Harvey in his period of play were Barnes and Bradman (both of whom did not play in the bowler friendly conditions of the 50s), Neither did Lawry or O'Neil. While Morris and Hassett avoided the 56 tour while Burge avoided the 53 series. Harvey played the lot and so you'd think that is a good reason his average suffers.

Australia's batting ave for the 48-61 "Harvey" period was 29.5 (yes thanks statsguru) so Harvey's was above average.

 

[watson]

Anil Kumble actually has a fine record against stronger nations and, historically, is one of best spin bowlers on Australian pitches.

There are explanations for Harvey's ave v Eng in Eng. Pitches in England in the 50s were poor (for batting - they seemed to deteriorate around the world in that decade). England possessed Bedser, Laker, Lock, Trueman and Statham in that time (Tyson being little account on his own pitches and at any time after his brief typhoon).

The only batsmen who out performed Harvey in his period of play were Barnes and Bradman (both of whom did not play in the bowler friendly conditions of the 50s), Neither did Lawry or O'Neil. While Morris and Hassett avoided the 56 tour while Burge avoided the 53 series. Harvey played the lot and so you'd think that is a good reason his average suffers.

Australia's batting ave for the 48-61 "Harvey" period was 29.5 (yes thanks statsguru) so Harvey's was above average.

Just noticed that Tony Lock picked-up Harvey on 6 occasions during the 1956 Ashes. Was wondering whether Lock was chucking the ball at the time, as Lock throwing the ball down on those dodgy wickets would have been a handful, and might explain Harvey's lowly 19 run average for the series.

 

[the big bambino]

Whether he was chucking or not the umps passed him so we should accept his wickets as legit. Lock would've been a handful on those pretty dire wickets. He averaged 10 and 7! in the 1957 and 1958 test seasons when the opponents were the WI and NZ. The WI would have been a pretty good side and NZ not as bad as Lock's bowling made them out to be. So the pitches around that time must have been total rubbish. All of a sudden Harvey's meagre 19 starts to stand tall in such company.

 

[JBMAC]

Ian Craig,Norm O'Neill, Basil D'Olivera, John Maclean, Peter Taylor, Garth LeRoux, Lance Gibbs, Nawab of Pataudi( Snr & Jr), Ken Barrington, John Edrich, Rusi Surti, Neil Harvey, Graham McKenzie....having seen so much cricket this list could go on in ad finitum....just chew these over for now.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Thanks JBMAC I'll check some of those out.
A name that I just remembered was Don Tallon, I think there's a lot of people who (rightly) consider him a great keeper, possibly the best ever. But don't realise how great his batting was. Had it not been for dubious selectors keeping the aging great Oldfield in the side Tallon would have been on tour before the war.
In fact there are a raft of great players who missed there best years because of war. I think Tallon's batting is one

 

[fredfertang]

I'd like to remind you Fred, that the youngster heaped the runs on Laker in '48 at Leeds when the bloody Poms put a good cricket wicket down to play on. Bloody Poms

1948?

I think you'll find the first Ashes series after the War was in 1953

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Clive Lloyd. Always remembered as the leader of the side, but he was such a gun batsman too. And a great catcher.

I'd have to agree with this. I was brought up listening to dad tell me if there's someone to bat for your life it was Clive Lloyd. Now I'm not sure I fully believe that, but having read and seen his exploits, Supercat deserves to be seen as GREAT

 

[AldoRaine18]

1948?

I think you'll find the first Ashes series after the War was in 1953

Guess he's talking about this match.

4th Test: England v Australia at Leeds, Jul 22-27, 1948 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Don't worry Aldo, i believe Fred likes to channel the ignorance is bliss theory, probably forgot most of Bradman's series. And did the Ashes stop getting played in the 90's?

 

[Migara]

On MacGill, I always had the feeling that his career benefitted from playing with Warne. Whenever he played as a second spinner it meant the wicket was going to be more suited to spin bowlers and batsmen would aim to take risks against him rather than Warne which helped him get them out.

And he was dreadful against sides who play spin well. If he was the first spinner, wouldn't have made many tours to India or SL or against them in Aus. You could expect some caning against the Indian batting jaggernaut of late 90s and mid 200s, but boy, SL? We had only modest success against great spinners (Against Warne in Aus and again st Kumble, Harbhajan and Saqlain at home), and made some ****ty ones look great (i.e. Vettori). But getting owned by the weakest SL batting unit when Warne averaged 18 or something on dustbowls is something.

 

[fredfertang]

Don't worry Aldo, i believe Fred likes to channel the ignorance is bliss theory, probably forgot most of Bradman's series. And did the Ashes stop getting played in the 90's?

Sadly Bradman can't be forgotten, but as for the 1990s the Ashes were of course in abeyance between 1986 and 2005, apart from a one off challenge match in 1997 at Edgbaston

 

[Furball]

Sadly Bradman can't be forgotten, but as for the 1990s the Ashes were of course in abeyance between 1986 and 2005, apart from a one off challenge match in 1997 at Edgbaston

I don't know why we don't play more series in Australia either. 4 out of the last 5 series being in England seems like overkill, Australia can't be that bad surely.

 

[JBMAC]

1948?

I think you'll find the first Ashes series after the War was in 1953

I think you may find Aust vs England tests resumed as early as Dec '46 fredfertang. I may be wrong having a touch of "pots 'n' pans" disease but I do recall Bradman scoring 180 odd at The Gabba being out to Edrich(?) Whether that series was an ashes series I do not recall.

 

[Burgey]

Norm O'Neill, Colin McDonald and Bill Lawry are three players I always think are under rated.

 

[the big bambino]

Ian Redpath got a guernsey in this thread?

 

[JBMAC]

Paul Sheehan, Dirk Wellham, Tom Veivers, Peter Burge, Colin McCool, Keith Stackpole, Ian Johnston, Peter May, Colin Cowdrey, Ken Mackay, Simon O'Donnell, Bill Edrich, Bosquanet, Dennis Amiss,

 

[Gob]

Shane Watson#Shanewatsonthoughts