Modern New Zealand XI (dayboo post 1980) 6th poll: Catch my balls or whack my balls?

[Flem274*]

READ THE ORIGINAL POST FOR ONCE YOU MUPPETS

Since no one seems to understand that Brendon McCullum cannot open the batting and keep wicket, this is a poll for everyone to choose ONE option. Your multiple choice and joke option privileges have been revoked because this is like herding cats.

Option 1: Brendon McCullum opens the batting, BJ Watling keeps wicket, Stephen Fleming is available in the final poll

Option 2: Stephen Fleming opens the batting, Brendon McCullum keeps wicket, BJ Watling is available in the final poll

Option 3: Stephen Fleming opens the batting, BJ Watling keeps wicket, Brendon McCullum is available in the final poll

What you vote for here is your final vote. I don't care if you screw up, I don't care if you change your mind. If you don't like it go support a **** team like England, Australia or India

The team so far is

Mark Richardson
-
Kane Williamson
Martin Crowe
Ross Taylor
-
-
Daniel Vettori
Tim Southee
Shane Bond
Trent Boult.

Meet your contestants

Stephen Fleming


Career: 111 tests, 7172 @ 40.06, 9 hundreds and 46 fifties. SR 45.
As Opener: 7 tests, 333 @ 33.30, 1 hundred and 1 fifty
Middle Order: See career pretty much.

Nice things he did - Smashed Murali every time, got hold of Warne once or twice, scored a double ton against South Africa, caught balls, captained a bit, became my favourite player

Brendon McCullum


Career: 94 tests, 6008 @ 38.76, 11 hundreds and 29 fifties. SR 63.
As Keeper: 52 tests, 2803 @ 34.18, 5 hundreds and 15 fifties. SR 61
As Opener: 20 tests (one in 2004???), 1316 @ 39.87, 2 hundreds and 6 fifties. SR 60.
Middle Order, not keeper: 25 tests, 1908 @ 47.70, 4 hundreds and 8 fifties. SR 66.

Nice things he did - Caught balls with gloves, often in spectacular fashion. Scores hilarious and huge hundreds, trolled India, meme creator

BJ Watling


Career: 31 tests, 1832 @ 40.71, 5 hundreds and 10 fifties. SR 44.
As Keeper: 23 tests, 1440 @ 46.45, 4 hundreds and 9 fifties. SR 43

Nice things he did - Caught balls with gloves, sometimes in spectacular fashion. Two world record breaking match saving/winning partnerships, smashed England, only bloke to fight in South Africa

 

[Howe_zat]

Parore

 

[NZTailender]

Can't we open with Watling?

 

[Zinzan]

Meet your contestants

Stephen Fleming
View attachment 22237

Trying to sabotage the Fleming support I see.

 

[straw man]

Struggling with this one. If we assume that this team plays against other countries' best-ofs, then I think both McCullum and Fleming are going to struggle as openers as opening bowlers expose their prominent weaknesses (and even Richardson said he felt he had no chance against McGrath and Gillespie at the end of his career). In that sense, the fact McCullum also has the option of all-out attack gives him a chance for success that Fleming doesn't have. So McCullum shades that imo.

But then I can't decide McCullum vs Watling as keeper. Has Watling done it for long enough? And bearing in mind Bahnz's point that McCullum didn't actually score that many important runs during the wicketkeeping phase of his career. Is a better keeper than Watling though. Hrmm.

 

[mr_mister]

Trying to sabotage the Fleming support I see.

he's his favourite player though o_O

 

[Zinzan]

Pleased to see sanity has prevailed here.

 

[Bahnz]

Pleased to see sanity has prevailed here.

If by sanity you mean picking the lesser batsman of the two keeping options for a team that already has very thin batting by AT standards, then yes I suppose it has. Not sure why you would choose to define sanity that way though.

 

[Zinzan]

If by sanity you mean picking the lesser batsman of the two keeping options for a team that already has very thin batting by AT standards, then yes I suppose it has. Not sure why you would choose to define sanity that way though.

Sanity in that Stephen Fleming is far more likely to survive as an opener against the very best attacks than Bmac would & this poll result should now seal the deal in terms of Flem opening with Rigor & Bmac rightly at no 6 & 7 with the gloves.

 

[Bahnz]

Agree with the former, but disagree with the later. Meh, I guess 6 years of mediocrity wins out over 2 and a half years of excellence. Oh well, at least now we can all have a good laugh at BMac when he salmon leaps to spill catches going straight down Flem's throat at 1st slip.

 

[Zinzan]

Agree with the former, but disagree with the later. Meh, I guess 6 years of mediocrity wins out over 2 and a half years of excellence. Oh well, at least now we can all have a good laugh at BMac when he salmon leaps to spill catches going straight down Flem's throat at 1st slip.

I made myself fairly clear that if Watling was to maintain a similar the level of performance in the next 12-18 months as in the last 24 months, then he'd overtake McCullum in my mind. As of now, 2.5 years is not quite enough for me, especially considering as much as BJ's keeping has improved recently, he's still a long way off Bmac circa 2004-2009 as a pure keeper.

Furthermore, I'm not sure where 'mediocrity' comes into play in relation to McCullum keeping & whether you're referring to his mid30s average with the gloves or his glove-work in general, but you're not seriously suggesting BJ is better purely as a keeper are you?

 

[Bahnz]

I made myself fairly clear that if Watling was to maintain a similar the level of performance in the next 12-18 months as in the last 24 months, then he'd overtake McCullum in my mind. As of now, 2.5 years is not quite enough for me, especially considering as much as BJ's keeping has improved recently, he's still a long way off Bmac circa 2004-2009 as a pure keeper.

Furthermore, I'm not sure where 'mediocrity' comes into play in relation to McCullum keeping & whether you're referring to his mid30s average with the gloves or his glove-work in general, but you're not seriously suggesting BJ is better purely as a keeper are you?

Yeah, am referring to his 34 batting average as a keeper. No questions that he was sublime with the gloves - arguably our best ever and certainly a step up over BJ (but not by enough to sacrifice BJ's obvious superiority with the bat). BJ's keeping is perfectly serviceable by international standards - especially for a seam-dominant attack. I can only remember him dropping a couple of (tough) chances in his keeping career so far.

 

[Zinzan]

Jeez that's stiff referring to a test average around the mid30s for someone excellent with the gloves as 'mediocre'. It may not quite be in the Gilchrist, Flower or Ames vicinity, but last time I checked an average of 34 for a good test keeper is at the very least 'good'.

 

[Bahnz]

Eh, maybe by the standards of the 90's, but McCullum was very middle of the road by the standards of his day. Ahead of the likes of Geraint Jones and Ramdin, a bit better than Boucher and Jayawardene, on par with Mushfiqur and behind the likes of Sangakkara, Gilchrist, Prior and Dhoni. I guess good is a fair description of his play, but only in the sense that he was making the grade (as opposed to excelling above it as BJ has done during his time).

 

[Zinzan]

Eh, maybe by the standards of the 90's, but McCullum was very middle of the road by the standards of his day. Ahead of the likes of Geraint Jones and Ramdin, a bit better than Boucher and Jayawardene and behind the likes of Haddin, Gilchrist, Prior and Dhoni. I guess good is a fair description of his play, but only in the sense that he was making the grade (as opposed to excelling above it as BJ has done during his time).

Actually, add Haddin to the group McCullum out-performed with the bat. He averages 32 with the gloves.

There's no doubt BJ has done incredibly well to average 46 with the bat as a keeper, but he does have the advantage over Bmac of returning to the team to wicket-keep as a much more seasoned and experienced batsman at the age of 27-28 as opposed to Bmac who debuted with the gloves aged 22-23.

Anyway, not sure we're going to convince each-other anytime soon. I'll certainly change my future vote to Watling if he can maintain this level.

 

[ankitj]

But where is the option where McCullum clones himself and plays twice?

 

[Bahnz]

Actually, add Haddin to the group McCullum out-performed with the bat. He averages 32 with the gloves.

There's no doubt BJ has done incredibly well to average 46 with the bat as a keeper, but he does have the advantage over Bmac of returning to the team to wicket-keep as a much more seasoned and experienced batsman at the age of 27-28 as opposed to Bmac who debuted with the gloves aged 22-23.

Anyway, not sure we're going to convince each-other anytime soon. I'll certainly change my future vote to Watling if he can maintain this level.

That really doesn't matter. As a keeper McCullum was essentially forced into early retirement by injury. How good he might've become is irrelevant to this discussion imo.

 

[Zinzan]

That really doesn't matter. As a keeper McCullum was essentially forced into early retirement by injury. How good he might've become is irrelevant to this discussion imo.

That point wasn't about how well McCullum would have done in the 2nd half of his career as keeper, but more about how it's helped BJ's keeping average that he returned to the side to take the gloves as a more seasoned/experienced test batsman. There's no doubt in my mind BJ's average as wicket-keeper would been lower had he started that keeping gig in his early 20s. We know this because he averaged 28 as a stand-alone batsman prior to this latest return & that's all I was getting at there.

 

[Bahnz]

Fair enough, but even if you restrict McCullum's record to the last 2 and a half years of his career, BJ still has much the better record.

 

[Zinzan]

Well this is true. Anyway, I feel much more strongly about Fleming opening the batting ahead of Bmac than I do about whether it's Bmac or Watling who ends up in the keepers spots. That one's fairly close either way