Modern New Zealand XI (dayboo post 1980) first poll: The Two Positions from Hell

[Red]

Could be fairly wrong here, but I'd go for

- Fleming *
- Richardson
- Williamson
- Crowe
- Taylor
- Watling +
- Cairns
- Vettori
- Boult
- Doull
- Bond

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Could be fairly wrong here, but I'd go for

- Fleming *
- Richardson
- Williamson
- Crowe
- Taylor
- Watling +
- Cairns
- Vettori
- Boult
- Doull
- Bond

Despite talking up Andrew Jones, he is more of a makeshift opener than Fleming so that would be my team too except I'd pick Nash instead of Doull.

It is hard on Ian Smith and Adam Parore (the two best NZ keepers I've seen - can't comment on Wadsworth and earlier players) but I don't think either will get a vote bcos of Watling and BMac's batting. Even if BMac is picked as a specialist bat a top-class keeper (prob Parore) wouldn't even make the 2ndXI.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

BMac really is an extraordinary player by NZ standards -

2nd or 3rd best(or close to) as an:
Opener
no5
Keeper-batsman
Pure keeper
Captain

 

[Hurricane]

Why? 4th best NZ batsman of the era behind Crowe, Taylor and KW.

I would be very tempted to open with Jones instead of Fleming or BMac.
Despite looking ungainly at the crease he was less likely to be knocked over early like those two and when set didn't 'give it away' by mental lapses when past 50 or stupid slogging.

It is just that one of those two needs to captain, they looked better at the crease, and they have scored many of NZ's big 200+ score (Jones never got a double)

1st XI number 3 = KW
2nd XI number 3 = Fleming

As for the number 4 and 5 spots in both teams.

1st XI = Crowe, Taylor
2nd XI = BMac, Styris or MacMillan or Astle

At least by my rankings.

Fleming was vaaaaastly superior to Jones. Jones scored runs through sheer will power rather than talent and his innings were often selfish,

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

1st XI number 3 = KW
2nd XI number 3 = Fleming

As for the number 4 and 5 spots in both teams.

1st XI = Crowe, Taylor
2nd XI = Fleming, BMac

At least by my rankings.

Fleming was vaaaaastly superior to Jones. Jones scored runs through sheer will power rather than talent and his innings were often selfish,

I don't think that the MCC rules would permit Flem to have two bats per innings 'Cane.

Sometimes will power is more effective at scoring runs than an incredible talent not realising its potential.

A run is still worth a run. I appreciate our personal views are contrary on this issue.

 

[morgieb]

Did Fleming ever open at Test cricket?

 

[Hurricane]

I don't think that the MCC rules would permit Flem to have two bats per innings 'Cane.

Sometimes will power is more effective at scoring runs than an incredible talent not realising its potential.

A run is still worth a run. I appreciate our personal views are contrary on this issue.

Thanks for catching that better edit my post.

 

[Hurricane]

Did Fleming ever open at Test cricket?

Yessum.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Did Fleming ever open at Test cricket?

Yeah did very well opening with Richardson on 2004 tour of England

The way I look at it, Jones measured up pretty well (record-wise) against other players around the world during his era and probably could've made the West Indian and Pakistani sides as a 3/4 (best teams in the world at the time). Fleming wouldn't have got close to making the Australian, South African ior Indian sides in his era.

 

[Hurricane]

Yeah did very well opening with Richardson on 2004 tour of England

The way I look at it, Jones measured up pretty well (record-wise) against other players around the world during his era and probably could've made the West Indian and Pakistani sides as a 3/4 (best teams in the world at the time). Fleming wouldn't have got close to making the Australian, South African ior Indian sides in his era.

Not even as a number 6?

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Yeah, ok as a no6

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Also I see that John F Reid debuted in 1979 so is not eligible (ave of 46)

 

[Zinzan]

Could be fairly wrong here, but I'd go for

- Fleming *
- Richardson
- Williamson
- Crowe
- Taylor
- Watling +
- Cairns
- Vettori
- Boult
- Doull
- Bond

Let me fix this for you;

- Fleming *
- Richardson
- Williamson
- Crowe
- Taylor
- BMac +
- Cairns
- Vettori
- Southee
- Boult
- Bond

There, perfect now.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Let me fix this for you;

- Fleming *
- Richardson
- Williamson
- Crowe
- Taylor
- BMac +
- Cairns
- Vettori
- Southee
- Boult
- Bond

There, perfect now.

Let me fix this for you.

Fleming/BMac*
Richardson
Williamson (6)
Crowe (7)
Taylor
Ryder (4)
Watling +
Cairns (3)
Vettori (5)
Bond (1)
Boult (2)

Touring squad A Jones and D Nash. Lots of runs. Lots of wickets.

 

[NZTailender]

Simon Doull quite underrated. Dion Nash too, it would seem

Edit: apart from Grumpy

 

[Zinzan]

I love BJ (as most guys do), however I'm not sure he's done quite enough now to oust McCullum as best batsmen/keeper quite yet. Another year or two scoring the way he has been and he's in my XI though.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

I love BJ (as most guys do), however I'm not sure he's done quite enough now to oust McCullum as best batsmen/keeper quite yet. Another year or two scoring the way he has been and he's in my XI though.

Watling as designated keeper 23 matches 37 innings 6 not outs 1440 runs 142* top score 46.45 average 4 centuries 9 fifties
McCullum 52 matches 87 innings 2803 runs 185 top score 34.18 average 5 centuries 15 fifties

Watling has done enough in my book. He is averaging far more dismissals (catches and stumpings) but swing bowlers like Boult have a lot to do with that.

 

[Zinzan]

Watling as designated keeper 23 matches 37 innings 6 not outs 1440 runs 142* top score 46.45 average 4 centuries 9 fifties
McCullum 52 matches 87 innings 2803 runs 185 top score 34.18 average 5 centuries 15 fifties

Watling has done enough in my book. He is averaging far more dismissals (catches and stumpings) but swing bowlers like Boult have a lot to do with that.

Yeah, as I said, he's not far off ousting McCullum in my side. I do still think McCullum was superior as a pure keeper, and that's a big factor for me. But if Watling averages over 35 for another year or so I won't be able to deny him anymore.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Simon Doull quite underrated. Dion Nash too, it would seem

Edit: apart from Grumpy

Thanks. But in fairness to other posters, there are others talking of Nash too in the thread below.

Yeah - I've been thinking about Nash. In the end though, the three best seamers seems to be Bond, Cairns and Boult. o those three, supported by Jesse Ryder, and Vettori as the spinner, with Crowe and KW to bowl some overs gives NZ the long batting order that it needs to be ATG competitive.

But if you're going with Cairns to bat 6 instead of Ryder/Astle/McMillan then Nash certainly warrants a contest with Southee for team selection. Southee v Doull is also a close battle, but Nash has runs on his side to win the three way battle.

 

[Flametree]

I went for McCullum from the list given, but had forgotten that I won't be able to squeeze all of Williamson, Taylor, Jones Crowe, Fleming/Ryder into the middle order so I think I'd prefer Jones. He opened a fair bit in first class cricket I think. But ticking the "other" box doesn't seem worth it as there won't be any other votes...

Unlike most posters I think I favour a standard 6-1-4 formation, allowing you to pick your best out and out keeper and best three seam bowlers without worrying about the batting, though I do see the appeal of Watling/BMac - Cairns - Vettori at 6/7/8. Williamson, Crowe (and possibly Ryder at 6) give you a 5th bowling option, and if this side is entering a mythical contest against other world xi's, then the batting is a bit of a weakness (players averaging mid 40's vs 50+ for other teams) so I think a 6th batsman is needed.

I'm not sure the format of the polls will allow that to come through though...