CaptainGrumpy
Banned
Oooh, that is a thread worthy debate.I think McCullum's a better specialist Test bat than Fleming. Fleming just wasn't that good, although he was a standout in a very weak side.
Oooh, that is a thread worthy debate.I think McCullum's a better specialist Test bat than Fleming. Fleming just wasn't that good, although he was a standout in a very weak side.
Only on marble decks against rubbish bowling attacks tbf.Apparently he was quite attacking before his leg was crushed at Gatwick airport.
He was pretty clear at that time he was retiring for business reasons.It was unrelenting abuse and Wright suffered through all of it and would ton up. I suspect that atmosphere played in Bruce's decision to give it away. That is pure speculation though..
I think the key thing whatever you decide is enforcing the rule that no one can open the batting and also keep. That wouldn't happen in real life and shouldn't happen in this exercise. Apart from that rule I am laid back about whatever you decide. By rights Vettori should win the spinners role but depending on what time limit you set - some of the old time spinners may get some votes from some of the veteran posters with grey hair.In terms of order I'm thinking
this one
three pace bowlers
three middle order bats
keeper
spinner
#6
trying to keep it as open as possible because there is a gap in batting ability between say baz/watling and parore/smith and do we want just the one pace bowling allrounder or both major ones and do the allrounders begin at 6 or 7 and do we have three or four specialist middle order batsmen? etc etc
so the order of polls will be key to make sure the balance isn't fixed too early.
Ouch.... Firstly, the NZ test side between 98-2004 was by no means weak, and secondly, even if Fleming didn't quite fulfill his immense potential, he was a very good test batsman and was generally the prize wicket at the time he played.I think McCullum's a better specialist Test bat than Fleming. Fleming just wasn't that good, although he was a standout in a very weak side.
Kiwiviktor has outdone himself. It is a brilliant debate.Ouch.... Firstly, the NZ test side between 98-2004 was by no means weak, and secondly, even if Fleming didn't quite fulfill his immense potential, he was a very good test batsman and was generally the prize wicket at the time he played.
As much as I love Watling, for me he needs to score the way he has been for another year or so before I'd consider putting him ahead of BMac as keeper in the side. And as much as BJ's glove-work's improved, especially recently, he's not as good a pure keeper as McCullum was at his best.In terms of order I'm thinking
this one
three pace bowlers
three middle order bats
keeper
spinner
#6
trying to keep it as open as possible because there is a gap in batting ability between say baz/watling and parore/smith and do we want just the one pace bowling allrounder or both major ones and do the allrounders begin at 6 or 7 and do we have three or four specialist middle order batsmen? etc etc
so the order of polls will be key to make sure the balance isn't fixed too early.
I think it is in part a tribute to Watling.McCullum has no business having 7 votes. If he gets second spot is a real acknowledgement of how barren the stocks are if you take away Wright and Edgar from the voting procedure.
Baz may be a suitable candidate for number 5, but he was an inconsistent opener, and opening is all about being consistent. Also the fact that he decided he wasn't good enough at opening to keep doing it long term speaks volumes.
He never really figured out the position either. Sometimes he would bat like Sehwag and other times in a very measured and methodical fashion. Neither method brought him long term success.
He may be the 2nd best choice but is by default at best and not by merit.
He's no chance of 5 in this side though. He's not going to get in ahead of Taylor in that slot and nobody's pushing KW & Crowe out of no.s 3 & 4 anytime soon.McCullum has no business having 7 votes. If he gets second spot is a real acknowledgement of how barren the stocks are if you take away Wright and Edgar from the voting procedure.
Baz may be a suitable candidate for number 5, but he was an inconsistent opener, and opening is all about being consistent. Also the fact that he decided he wasn't good enough at opening to keep doing it long term speaks volumes.
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hey don't blame me, blame democracy. this is CWs team.As much as I love Watling, for me he needs to score the way he has been for another year or so before I'd consider putting him ahead of BMac as keeper in the side. And as much as BJ's glove-work's improved, especially recently, he's not as good a pure keeper as McCullum was at his best.
As far as I can tell, if you include both Watling and BMac in the side, there's no room for Fleming at 6, given you want Cairns and Vettori at 7 & 8 right? So you sure you still want to play both of them?
That was directed at you since you said you wanted Watling as WK so hence must have voted Bmac on the basis of being as a specialist non-wicketkeeping opener.hey don't blame me, blame democracy. this is CWs team.
and our production line of world class keeper bats.
Baz is the second best opener. I'm obvz a big Fleming fan but he wasn't as good at opening the batting as Baz.That was directed at you since you said you wanted Watling as WK so hence must have voted Bmac on the basis of being as a specialist non-wicketkeeping opener.
That's just plain wrong. Flem around 2003-2004 was like McCullum was in 2014, one of the best in that period. Pretty sure he averaged close to 60 in that 2 year period, including achieving something hardly any batsman of his time did; that being owning Murali in SL.When McCullum stopped being used as a floater and found his real place in the order, he became one of the better batsmen in the world. I don't think Fleming would have ever made a World XI at any point in his career like McCullum has the past 12 months or so.
you're not allowed to pick 12 openers and hadlee can't be picked anywayRichardson
Guptill
Williamson
Crowe
Taylor
Cheat
Baz
Vettori
Hadlee
Boult
Bond/southee when bond is injured.
Disagree for sure. Think his limited opportunities as opener obviously counts against him here, which may be fair enough. But against good bowling attacks, I'd rate Fleming to last longer than McCullum against the new ball about 7/10 times, even if Bmac scored the odd blistering ton every 8-9 test matches.Baz is the second best opener. I'm obvz a big Fleming fan but he wasn't as good at opening the batting as Baz.
Following the guidelines, mine would be;Richardson
Guptill
Williamson
Crowe
Taylor
Cheat
Baz
Vettori
Hadlee
Boult
Bond/southee when bond is injured.