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Bowlers who can bat

Bolo

State Captain
I've been wondering if we perhaps fail to recognise the value of a tailender that is able to cobble together some runs. I'm not referring to genuine allrounders here, but rather of a bowler who can put a few on the board. I'm particularly thinking of bowlers with a sub-20 batting average.

I'll approach this issue from a stats perspective as the argument is easier to illustrate. Disregarding stats, I see no reason to alter the argument.

It seems to me that most of us would virtually automatically disqualify a batman who averages 45 from ATG status while accepting the majority who average 50 easily. I know this is simplistic in this instance (the difference between a 49 and a 50 average could be argued to have the same effect), but what if we examined two batsmen who, in today's era, averaged 42 and 47 respectively? Discounting for the possibility of a difference in exceptional or extremely valuable innings, I would consider the first to be a passable player, and the second to be extremely valuable.

If 5 runs is the difference between passable and extremely valuable, how then to assess the difference in bowlers with a difference of 5 runs in their batting average? If we were to equate average with RPI, 5 runs is 5 runs, irrespective of who scores them, but would any of us factor this in when comparing bowlers? Take a bowler who averages 10 with the bat, and one who averages 15. Would any of us even notice the difference, let alone factor it in when assessing the players?

Let's take 11.5 runs, the difference between Marshall and Mcgrath. It's a convenient comparison- unquestionably 2 of the greatest bowlers ever, one of whom was utter dross with the bat, and the other who fell just short of the point (at which I'm assuming) most fans typically start factoring batting ability into assessing the overall value of a bowler. Does anybody factor this difference into their assessments of these two players though?

What if the 11.5 difference were applied to Tendulkar/ Lara? If either averaged 65, they would be to me without question the 2nd greatest batman ever, and if they averaged a shade over 40, would they even be remembered?

Batting average is a fairly simple metric. RPI and RPT play a major role. But are we willing to discount the potential value of bowlers in this regard just because they played in the lower order? While it is true they did not have the opportunity, it is also true that they did not add the value.

Value of runs is another aspect to consider, and in this regard, my 2 cents says tailenders win easily. Top/middle order runs do not seem to add the same level of value as tailender runs. If chasing 60 with 9 wickets in hand, or posting a mammoth total prior to declaration, someone else can always score these runs. If your tail is batting though, it is usually because you need the runs. It seems to me that only in the 4th innings in a hopeless cause are runs from the tail devalued.

There is also the question of runs scored (or the ability to hang around) affecting team score beyond the addition of those runs. A player who comes in, hits 2 sixes, and is out 3rd ball has contributed 12. What though of the value of 12(40) from a number 11? More than those runs will have been added while he is at the crease. You will sometimes have a good, set batsman batting with a no 11, and more often have said batsman get out going for quick runs or declining singles trying to avoid this situation. In a Moneyball type of analysis, wouldn't it be better to shore up the tail than to have a stronger top-order?

While an argument in favour of the selecting the best bowler irrespective of batting ability can reasonably be made, and that the value of a strong tail as a complete unit gets noticed, but is the value of the ability to bat a bit given sufficient credence when analysing the value of a particular bowler?
 

smash84

The Tiger King
While an argument in favour of the selecting the best bowler irrespective of batting ability can reasonably be made, and that the value of a strong tail as a complete unit gets noticed, but is the value of the ability to bat a bit given sufficient credence when analysing the value of a particular bowler?
I think you could have saved yourself the effort to write so much else since your question is basically the copied part above.

If I understand your question correctly, then no. A bowler is usually selected for his bowling alone (in test matches). His job is to get cheap wickets. If he can bat then its a bonus but it isn't held against him unless you can find an equally good bowler who can bat better.
 

Daemon

Request Your Custom Title Now!
The solution then is to obviously bat your tailenders up front and batsman lower down.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
If I could, I'd just play Marshall and McGrath. In the same team.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Communication failure.

The question is not, as it stands, intended to be a practical one. It's not a selection guideline, it's a method of looking at the level of overall contribution by a player (value). I haven't suggested we select a weaker bowler based on the ability to bat. If we select an attack who will not get 20 wickets, we have clearly lost value, irrespective of how good they are with the bat.

I haven't suggested that 2 identical bowlers with different batting abilities exist, but if they did exist, would we recognise that the one player is the more valuable of the two?

To put the question another way, if the Don was a good part-time bowler, would we in any way care?

@Daemon,
Good point. Wanting a more even distribution of ability would still be valid though?
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
I've been wondering if we perhaps fail to recognise the value of a tailender that is able to cobble together some runs. I'm not referring to genuine allrounders here, but rather of a bowler who can put a few on the board. I'm particularly thinking of bowlers with a sub-20 batting average.

I'll approach this issue from a stats perspective
Bailed out there.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Communication failure.

The question is not, as it stands, intended to be a practical one. It's not a selection guideline, it's a method of looking at the level of overall contribution by a player (value). I haven't suggested we select a weaker bowler based on the ability to bat. If we select an attack who will not get 20 wickets, we have clearly lost value, irrespective of how good they are with the bat.

I haven't suggested that 2 identical bowlers with different batting abilities exist, but if they did exist, would we recognise that the one player is the more valuable of the two?

To put the question another way, if the Don was a good part-time bowler, would we in any way care?

@Daemon,
Good point. Wanting a more even distribution of ability would still be valid though?
Average does not measure contribution. Average does not measure production.

Someone who scored
25, 0, 20, 50, 5, 10, 30, 20 would average 20.

Someone who scored
25, 0*, 20, 50*, 5, 10, 30*, 20* would average 40.

We may think, or know, batsman 2 is the better batsman but there is no difference in contribution.

That is also why a 5 run difference in average between a top order player and a lower order player is completely different. Firstly top order players bat more often so their runs per game will be significantly skewed and not outs warp tail end batting averages.

Using averages to measure contribution and production is flawed.
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
No definitely choose an attack to take 20 wickets for the least amount of runs, and not to bat.
People still say this but I don't think a test side would even consider playing 4 totally hopeless batsmen, no matter how good they are as bowlers. In reality they don't really need to make that decision because so many bowlers are decent with the bat these days but a good side really does need to have an excellent number 8 and probably a decent 9 as well.
 

91Jmay

International Coach
Limited overs numbers 7 + 8 have to be able to power hit/score runs quickly on a reasonably regular basis in the modern game. Would rather set 325 instead of 300 and lose perhaps 1 wicket bowling. An example perhaps would be I'd rather have Jadeja than Senanayake.
 
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Bolo

State Captain
Average does not measure contribution. Average does not measure production.

Someone who scored
25, 0, 20, 50, 5, 10, 30, 20 would average 20.

Someone who scored
25, 0*, 20, 50*, 5, 10, 30*, 20* would average 40.

We may think, or know, batsman 2 is the better batsman but there is no difference in contribution.

That is also why a 5 run difference in average between a top order player and a lower order player is completely different. Firstly top order players bat more often so their runs per game will be significantly skewed and not outs warp tail end batting averages.

Using averages to measure contribution and production is flawed.
Agreed, but every traditional measure is flawed, particularly with respect to lower order batsmen. Other measures like RPI or RPT underestimate the value of a player on the basis that they have not had the opportunity to prove this value. There is no clear answer to this one.

Nevertheless, this post consisted of a primary hypothesis (that the value of lower order batsmen is underestimated), and a secondary, supporting one (that the value of contribution from lower order batsmen is as/more valuable than top order contributions). I'm more than happy to entirely abandon the entire secondary hypothesis and just say that there is value in lower order runs- my interest is, first and foremost, with the primary.

I'm about ready to wave the white flag on the whole thread though- seeing as nobody has really focused on what I had intended, the issue may just be too poorly articulated/ethereal/just plain dull.
 

Stapel

International Regular
I'm about ready to wave the white flag on the whole thread though- seeing as nobody has really focused on what I had intended, the issue may just be too poorly articulated/ethereal/just plain dull.
Don't give up that soon, dude!

To give my 2 cents: I think the greatest failure of recognition is, as you mentioned in the bottom of your OP, the ability to hang around, rather than to contribute. If a Test team happen to have a number 10 that can actually score runs, well, good for them. But having a dude that takes 40 or 50 balls to get out, rather than 15 or 20, makes a quite a difference.
 

cpr

International Coach
One person who comes to mind in this is James Anderson. Will never be one selected for his batting ability, but his ability to at least score a run (and in many cases hang around a bit longer so someone else can knock a few runs) was quite well lauded, over here at least.

Suppose if you chuck Hoggard in too, you're looking at two bowlers who valued not losing their wicket as highly as taking one themselves, whereas someone like Harmison could hit a ball hard and rack up a quick 20 if he was in the mood, or just as easily go cheeply. That can be the difference in an easy target and a tricky total for a chasing team (especially if they took quite a few overs to be removed to)
 

JBMAC

State Captain
I'll throw in my two bobs worth about bowlers who can bat(occasionally).....Allan Davidson, Keith Miller, Ritchie Benaud, Craig McDermott. AND don't say to me Benaud and Miller were all rounders they were not selected that way
 

Bolo

State Captain
I find Anderson particularly appealing as an example as he illustrates points made by several contributors to the thread. As a batsman, he has virtually no scores noteworthy in any way, and a rubbish average.

I can, however, think of 2 or 3 games that England unquestionably managed to draw on the back of his batting contributions, and several more in which his contribution likely swung the result. When comparing him to a batsman of the ‘quality’ of Courtney Walsh, my Holmes-like sleuthery (read: complete guesswork) says that his batting ability has had a definable influence on the results of many more games than he has MOM awards for his bowling.

Even if he batted like the love-child of Pommie Mbangwa and Courtney Walsh, who had (with bat in hand) the mental fortitude of Shaun Tait, I would regard him to be worth his place as a bowler. But had he not been good enough for a single MOM with ball in hand, I don’t think I would consider him irrespective of batting contributions. If the above paragraph is true, and if the primary aim of selection is to choose players who will positively impact on match results, what reason do I have to cling to this attitude? (The question is not a rhetorical one- this paragraph demonstrates how I would actually act as a selector, and I’m trying to understand if I would be justified in acting in this fashion).

Anderson is an easy example as he is fresh in the mind. I can’t recall the effect of most other bowlers on match results with the bat, but I’m sure they have had an impact- it doesn’t seem likely that a number 11 with one decent score to his name would be the seminal example of a lower order batman who contributes to results.
 

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