The best 3rd seamer of all time

[honestbharani]

Ok.. The ATG Nerds are out in full force and we are taking over the first page of CW.. Suck it, Phlegm...



But seriously, we all know how cricket generally demands certain types of players for various roles and it has been proven on so many occasions that you cant just select the best XI cricketers and see them become a great team. Every team game demands individuals to shape themselves to roles required by the team, for it to perform at its best. And no role can be more crucial in deciding between a good team and a great team, IMHO, than that of a quality 3rd seamer. You know, the guy who comes in after the opening bowlers have got the batting side 3 or 4 down and then piles on the pressure. Or the guy who comes in after the opening bowlers have been seen off (and, as is wont to happen these days, scored well off) and maintains pressure on them by keeping the scoring rate down, bowling to his field, not giving away loose deliveries and easy runs and so on.


I think both the great Windies side as well as the great Aussie side that we have seen dominate test cricket since the 1970s both had excellent 3rd seamers and it was one of the big reasons for their dominance. Now, granted, it was not always the same third seamer. And hence this thread. Who is, in your opinion, the best 3rd seamer in your time of watching cricket. And why? Hopefully folks can also elaborate on what they think are the attributes they look for in their ideal 3rd seamer as well...

 

[watson]

I enjoy a good ATG love fest with the best of them - but seriously, 'the best third seamer of all time'?

(Garner)

 

[Dan]

This is actually pretty interesting, IMO, considering that all the ATG seamers were generally given the new ball (because, y'know, ATG-ness). I ran a StatsGuru query (yeah, I know) that looked at the records of pace bowlers while not opening the bowling (bowling positions 3-6, 20 wicket qualification), and it becomes apparent that very few high-quality bowlers actually stay in that position for long:

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

The surprise there, IMO, is that Holding-Marshall-Garner are all right up there in terms of wickets taken (i.e. they had prolonged spells at first change), which really goes to show the depth of that West Indies attack (to the surprise of absolutely nobody).

Filter it by innings bowled, and you primarily get perennial top-order trundlers (Astle, Ganguly, Greg Chappell), which again, shows that the third seamer spot is the one to rotate while the players consistently being selected tend to get the new ball. Again, little surprise there.

So the answer? Well, I think it's a shortlist of the following:

Joel Garner, Morne Morkel, Andrew Flintoff, Ian Botham, Courtney Walsh (all have a significant proportion of career wickets from first-change or later and are in the side primarily for their bowling; sorry Jacques Kallis, you don't count).

So, Garner. Comfortably IMO.

 

[Dan]

Really surprised at how often Marshall bowled first change, ftr.

 

[fredfertang]

Garry Sobers

 

[mr_mister]

whether bowlers are seamers or swingers is something I take very little notice off... I know the Waqar and Wasim and Flem were swingers so I'm guessing Ambrose and McGrath are the two best seamers?

 

[ankitj]

I think we have done this before. Apart from Garner:

- Andy Roberts, Colin Croft, Courtney Walsh must have played that role
- Waqar Younis (or Imran Khan depending on who was the 3rd seamer just before Imran retired)
- Bill Johnston played the 3rd seamer role for a long time and had a bloody good average for that
- Makhaya Ntini was the 3rd seamer for a fair length of his career iirc

 

[honestbharani]

Interesting numbers, Dan... I would have thought Flintoff and maybe Gillespie when Lee and McGrath used to open the bowling amongst the examples from recent times... How do they hold up?

 

[Red]

Garner and Walsh both decent shouts.

Surprised I can't find Bill Johnston on that list Dan put up. Did some great change bowler work after Lindwall and Miller, I thought.

 

[Dan]

He'd be considered a 'mixed' bowler by Cricinfo I guess; bowled finger spin as well as his pace iirc

 

[CricAddict]

The best seamer of all time would be the best 3rd seamer of all time. That way, whoever you think is the 3rd best seamer of all time would be the best 3rd seamer of all time. For ATGs, I don't think much differs on when they bowl.

 

[honestbharani]

I am not looking to pick an all time XI here and decide who will be first change. I am just looking to see if I can find out who were the best at performing the role of a 3rd seamer over the years in international cricket.

 

[Riggins]

whether bowlers are seamers or swingers is something I take very little notice off... I know the Waqar and Wasim and Flem were swingers so I'm guessing Ambrose and McGrath are the two best seamers?

Damien Fleming? Very strange inclusion in that group of 5.

 

[honestbharani]

He is the bowlologist, afterall..

 

[Migara]

Ernie Toshack rings a bell?