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"Doctored" pitches

prithvi

Cricket Spectator
Hard Harry said:
By and large the experiments worked - the pitches had much more pace and bounce than is usual in this country. The problem was excessive sideways movement, which combined with the pace and bounce, made life extremely difficult for the batsmen.

As for mowers, don't be ridiculous. Preparing a decent pitch is much more than mowing a strip of grass - it has to have exposure to the sun to bake and harden the surface. Due to our horrible summer this wasn't able to happen and we got the minefields that you and everyone else saw.

I think it's about time that Indian fans stop blaming the pitches and admit they were bested. After all, in seven of the nine internationals, NZ scored more runs than the Indians did - simple as that.
simple as that - my friend. no one is disputing that NZ exploited the conditions better than india, so they were the better team. after all, both teams got the same pitch and conditions.

i wasnt discussing the result of that series, but the attempt to make excuses for the poor pitches. and those pitches WERE poor - fleming himself said so. we are all sympathetic to ur climatic aberrations, but get over it - this is intl cricket. and cricket played on those pitches is not a good advertisement for the sport.

and that 'experiment' actually did more damage to NZ than it did to india - coz the NZ batsmen werent able to carry any sort of form into the world cup.
 

prithvi

Cricket Spectator
marc71178 said:
What makes you so sure?
just a gut feel, plus even i cant see where the next gower/botham is going to come from. some of the guys who've made debuts for eng in the recent past - like robert key, have been ordinary, to say the least. the eng cap is being given away far too easily IMO.

but eng have fought well on tours abroad in the recent past, though the bottom line still doesnt read well for eng (their last torus to ind and lanka have ended in losses). and the gap between them and aus (for the ashes in particular) has only been widening. and i dont think flintoff and vaughan are going to be able to bridge that on their own.

there arent too many pace bowlers who have played regularly for eng - they're out with injury (this is turning out to be a global phenomenon though). but what eng dont have is the reserve strength of the aussies to replace these injured players.

of course i can be proved wrong, but that is looking quite unlikely.
 

prithvi

Cricket Spectator
marc71178 said:
That said I wouldn't be bracketing India with Australia and SA as the "best" until they actually win an away series.
yep - point taken.
though i think its only a matter of time.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Langeveldt said:
I just cant see where the next Laker is going to come from...
IMO there's a couple not too inferior to Laker in the current pool of county players - RDB Croft and AF Giles.
Difference is in the wickets.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Tim said:
Im also tired of hearing constant whining about the pitches during the NZ/India series...sure they were poor, but NZ weren't exactly doing much better than India.

If you look at the scorecards, NZ was even bowled out for less than India in their 1st innings at Wellington I think.
If India had stopped worrying about the pitches, it could have easily have been 2-0 to India in that series.
Im absolutely certain a more professional side like Australia or South Africa would have won 2-0 but NZ were in no great shakes during that series.
Quite frankly, the best chance of beating India is to prepare wickets similar to those of that series.
It's India's fault and no-one else's that they didn't return the compliment in October.
The home side has every right to help themselves as much as possible. If you're good in all conditions, you'll beat them anyway, as Tim points-out.
 

Swervy

International Captain
Richard said:
IMO there's a couple not too inferior to Laker in the current pool of county players - RDB Croft and AF Giles.
Difference is in the wickets.
that might be going a bit too far
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
prithvi said:
and that 'experiment' actually did more damage to NZ than it did to india - coz the NZ batsmen werent able to carry any sort of form into the world cup.
This is exactly what I exasperatedly thought time and again at that time.
For the Tests, fine, but the ODIs were an immidiate preparation for WC2003. Hence it would have been in the interests of both sides to prepare conditions as akin to those likely in South Africa as possible. To do otherwise would have benefited no-one in any way whatsoever.
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
prithvi said:
just a gut feel, plus even i cant see where the next gower/botham is going to come from. some of the guys who've made debuts for eng in the recent past - like robert key, have been ordinary, to say the least. the eng cap is being given away far too easily IMO.
Test Debuts since 1990 (1997)
Australia: 39 (17)
Bangladesh: 34 (34)
England: 81 (39)
India: 60 (39)
New Zealand: 55 (24)
Pakistan: 65 (37)
South Africa: 57 (26)
Sri Lanka: 52 (32)
West Indies: 61 (43)
Zimbabwe: 60 (26)

You've got a point there!

The full list of the England debutants:

542 N Hussain v West Indies Kingston 1989/90
543 AJ Stewart v West Indies Kingston 1989/90
544 CC Lewis v New Zealand Birmingham 1990
545 JE Morris v India Lord's 1990
546 NF Williams v India The Oval 1990
547 PCR Tufnell v Australia Melbourne 1990/91
548 GA Hick v West Indies Leeds 1991
549 MR Ramprakash v West Indies Leeds 1991
550 SL Watkin v West Indies Leeds 1991
551 RK Illingworth v West Indies Nottingham 1991
552 H Morris v West Indies Birmingham 1991
553 DA Reeve v New Zealand Christchurch 1991/92
554 IDK Salisbury v Pakistan Lord's 1992
555 TA Munton v Pakistan Manchester 1992
556 NA Mallender v Pakistan Leeds 1992
557 JP Taylor v India Kolkata 1992/93
558 RJ Blakey v India Chennai 1992/93
559 AR Caddick v Australia Manchester 1993
560 PM Such v Australia Manchester 1993
561 MC Ilott v Australia Nottingham 1993
562 MN Lathwell v Australia Nottingham 1993
563 MJ McCague v Australia Nottingham 1993
564 GP Thorpe v Australia Nottingham 1993
565 MP Bicknell v Australia Leeds 1993
566 SJ Rhodes v New Zealand Nottingham 1994
567 C White v New Zealand Nottingham 1994
568 D Gough v New Zealand Manchester 1994
569 JP Crawley v South Africa Lord's 1994
570 JE Benjamin v South Africa The Oval 1994
571 PJ Martin v West Indies Leeds 1995
572 DG Cork v West Indies Lord's 1995
573 JER Gallian v West Indies Birmingham 1995
574 NV Knight v West Indies Manchester 1995
575 M Watkinson v West Indies Manchester 1995
576 AP Wells v West Indies The Oval 1995
577 RC Irani v India Birmingham 1996
578 AD Mullally v India Birmingham 1996
579 MM Patel v India Birmingham 1996
580 MA Ealham v India Nottingham 1996
581 SJE Brown v Pakistan Lord's 1996
582 RDB Croft v Pakistan The Oval 1996
583 CEW Silverwood v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 1996/97
584 MA Butcher v Australia Birmingham 1997
585 DW Headley v Australia Manchester 1997
586 AM Smith v Australia Leeds 1997
587 AJ Hollioake v Australia Nottingham 1997
588 BC Hollioake v Australia Nottingham 1997
589 SP James v South Africa Lord's 1998
590 AF Giles v South Africa Manchester 1998
591 A Flintoff v South Africa Nottingham 1998
592 AJ Tudor v Australia Perth 1998/99
593 WK Hegg v Australia Melbourne 1998/99
594 A Habib v New Zealand Birmingham 1999
595 CMW Read v New Zealand Birmingham 1999
596 ESH Giddins v New Zealand The Oval 1999
597 DL Maddy v New Zealand The Oval 1999
598 CJ Adams v South Africa Johannesburg 1999/00
599 GM Hamilton v South Africa Johannesburg 1999/00
600 MP Vaughan v South Africa Johannesburg 1999/00
601 CP Schofield v Zimbabwe Lord's 2000
602 MJ Hoggard v West Indies Lord's 2000
603 ME Trescothick v West Indies Manchester 2000
604 RJ Sidebottom v Pakistan Lord's 2001
605 IJ Ward v Pakistan Lord's 2001
606 U Afzaal v Australia Birmingham 2001
607 J Ormond v Australia The Oval 2001
608 RKJ Dawson v India Chandigarh 2001/02
609 JS Foster v India Chandigarh 2001/02
610 SP Jones v India Lord's 2002
611 SJ Harmison v India Nottingham 2002
612 RWT Key v India Nottingham 2002
613 JM Anderson v Zimbabwe Lord's 2003
614 A McGrath v Zimbabwe Lord's 2003
615 RL Johnson v Zimbabwe Chester-le-Street 2003
616 RJ Kirtley v South Africa Nottingham 2003
617 ET Smith v South Africa Nottingham 2003
618 Kabir Ali v South Africa Leeds 2003
619 GJ Batty v Bangladesh Dhaka 2003/04
620 R Clarke v Bangladesh Dhaka 2003/04
621 MJ Saggers v Bangladesh Chittagong 2003/04
622 PD Collingwood v Sri Lanka Galle 2003/04

A good team is a settled team, and the figures back that up.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Neil Pickup said:
Test Debuts since 1990 (1997)
Australia: 39 (17)
Bangladesh: 34 (34)
England: 81 (39)
India: 60 (39)
New Zealand: 55 (24)
Pakistan: 65 (37)
South Africa: 57 (26)
Sri Lanka: 52 (32)
West Indies: 61 (43)
Zimbabwe: 60 (26)

You've got a point there!
How many matches have each nation played in that time out of interest?
 

Dick Rockett

International Vice-Captain
shankar said:
I think you mean 5 out of 7 ODI's. Out of the 7 ODIs the team, which lost the toss and had to bat first,lost the match in 6 of the matches. The only match in which this didnt happen was the 2'nd ODI played on a decent pitch on which the score crossed 200.I think that says something abt. the quality of the pitches.
No. I mean seven out of nine internationals - that includes the tests, which were also low scoring. As for losing the toss, that's bad luck, but so what? NZ still had to face the same conditions, and for the most part those conditions didn't improve throughout the day.

Also, no-one's disputing the quality of the pitches. What annoys me is this nagging assertion by some people that we deliberately doctored them to make them play that way. NZ cricket has a hard enough time pulling crowds with the encroaching rugby season each year - people are hardly likely to be pouring through the turnstiles if they only expect to see 120 runs a side.
 

Dick Rockett

International Vice-Captain
prithvi said:
i wasnt discussing the result of that series, but the attempt to make excuses for the poor pitches. and those pitches WERE poor - fleming himself said so.
No kidding. Has anyone denied they were poor?

we are all sympathetic to ur climatic aberrations, but get over it
Get over it? I'd suggest it's Indian fans that can't "get over it". Everyone was disappointed with the way the series turned out - NZ fans included - but as I have said many times, the suggestion that the administration deliberately had the pitches doctored to engineer these results is ridiculous. This is especially apparent when you consider that the point of the 7 match series was to prepare for the World Cup. What good could those pitches possibly have done for our WC chances?

this is intl cricket. and cricket played on those pitches is not a good advertisement for the sport.
What do you suggest as an alternative? MAKE it stop raining?
 
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shankar

International Debutant
Richard said:
It's India's fault and no-one else's that they didn't return the compliment in October.
The home side has every right to help themselves as much as possible. If you're good in all conditions, you'll beat them anyway, as Tim points-out.
But the point is, in the ODIs the toss decided who would win the match because the team batting first lost in all the matches except the second one which was played on a decent pitch.
 

Dick Rockett

International Vice-Captain
shankar said:
But the point is, in the ODIs the toss decided who would win the match because the team batting first lost in all the matches except the second one which was played on a decent pitch.
What nonsense. You're simply making excuses - trying to ignore the fact that India were beaten by a better team.

The toss count in that series was 4-3 to NZ. Also, the two games India won were only won by a margin of 2 and 1 wickets, chasing scores of 168 and 199 respectively. You can hardly claim it was a breeze for them to chase those scores, and in only one of those games did they lose the toss.
 
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Craig

World Traveller
Neil Pickup said:
The full list of the England debutants:

542 N Hussain v West Indies Kingston 1989/90
543 AJ Stewart v West Indies Kingston 1989/90
544 CC Lewis v New Zealand Birmingham 1990
545 JE Morris v India Lord's 1990
546 NF Williams v India The Oval 1990
547 PCR Tufnell v Australia Melbourne 1990/91
548 GA Hick v West Indies Leeds 1991
549 MR Ramprakash v West Indies Leeds 1991
550 SL Watkin v West Indies Leeds 1991
551 RK Illingworth v West Indies Nottingham 1991
552 H Morris v West Indies Birmingham 1991
553 DA Reeve v New Zealand Christchurch 1991/92
554 IDK Salisbury v Pakistan Lord's 1992
555 TA Munton v Pakistan Manchester 1992
556 NA Mallender v Pakistan Leeds 1992
557 JP Taylor v India Kolkata 1992/93
558 RJ Blakey v India Chennai 1992/93
559 AR Caddick v Australia Manchester 1993
560 PM Such v Australia Manchester 1993
561 MC Ilott v Australia Nottingham 1993
562 MN Lathwell v Australia Nottingham 1993
563 MJ McCague v Australia Nottingham 1993
564 GP Thorpe v Australia Nottingham 1993
565 MP Bicknell v Australia Leeds 1993
566 SJ Rhodes v New Zealand Nottingham 1994
567 C White v New Zealand Nottingham 1994
568 D Gough v New Zealand Manchester 1994
569 JP Crawley v South Africa Lord's 1994
570 JE Benjamin v South Africa The Oval 1994
571 PJ Martin v West Indies Leeds 1995
572 DG Cork v West Indies Lord's 1995
573 JER Gallian v West Indies Birmingham 1995
574 NV Knight v West Indies Manchester 1995
575 M Watkinson v West Indies Manchester 1995
576 AP Wells v West Indies The Oval 1995
577 RC Irani v India Birmingham 1996
578 AD Mullally v India Birmingham 1996
579 MM Patel v India Birmingham 1996
580 MA Ealham v India Nottingham 1996
581 SJE Brown v Pakistan Lord's 1996
582 RDB Croft v Pakistan The Oval 1996
583 CEW Silverwood v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 1996/97
584 MA Butcher v Australia Birmingham 1997
585 DW Headley v Australia Manchester 1997
586 AM Smith v Australia Leeds 1997
587 AJ Hollioake v Australia Nottingham 1997
588 BC Hollioake v Australia Nottingham 1997
589 SP James v South Africa Lord's 1998
590 AF Giles v South Africa Manchester 1998
591 A Flintoff v South Africa Nottingham 1998
592 AJ Tudor v Australia Perth 1998/99
593 WK Hegg v Australia Melbourne 1998/99
594 A Habib v New Zealand Birmingham 1999
595 CMW Read v New Zealand Birmingham 1999
596 ESH Giddins v New Zealand The Oval 1999
597 DL Maddy v New Zealand The Oval 1999
598 CJ Adams v South Africa Johannesburg 1999/00
599 GM Hamilton v South Africa Johannesburg 1999/00
600 MP Vaughan v South Africa Johannesburg 1999/00
601 CP Schofield v Zimbabwe Lord's 2000
602 MJ Hoggard v West Indies Lord's 2000
603 ME Trescothick v West Indies Manchester 2000
604 RJ Sidebottom v Pakistan Lord's 2001
605 IJ Ward v Pakistan Lord's 2001
606 U Afzaal v Australia Birmingham 2001
607 J Ormond v Australia The Oval 2001
608 RKJ Dawson v India Chandigarh 2001/02
609 JS Foster v India Chandigarh 2001/02
610 SP Jones v India Lord's 2002
611 SJ Harmison v India Nottingham 2002
612 RWT Key v India Nottingham 2002
613 JM Anderson v Zimbabwe Lord's 2003
614 A McGrath v Zimbabwe Lord's 2003
615 RL Johnson v Zimbabwe Chester-le-Street 2003
616 RJ Kirtley v South Africa Nottingham 2003
617 ET Smith v South Africa Nottingham 2003
618 Kabir Ali v South Africa Leeds 2003
619 GJ Batty v Bangladesh Dhaka 2003/04
620 R Clarke v Bangladesh Dhaka 2003/04
621 MJ Saggers v Bangladesh Chittagong 2003/04
622 PD Collingwood v Sri Lanka Galle 2003/04

A good team is a settled team, and the figures back that up.
And a number of them have been one Test flops or only played a couple of chances.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Swervy said:
that might be going a bit too far
Nope - not at all.
Look at Giles and Croft's figures when the conditions suit them. Almost as good as Laker and Lock.
People just cannot accept that, because conditions most prevolant today make them look very ordinary indeed that they could possibly be as good as someone like Laker.
Well, if you ask me they could.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
raju said:
Great stuff. Your best yet.
And yet again you can only us a sarcastic comment to attempt to devaluate a valid point.
Sorry, sunshine, it don't cut the mustard. About time you learned that now.
 

Swervy

International Captain
Richard said:
Nope - not at all.
Look at Giles and Croft's figures when the conditions suit them. Almost as good as Laker and Lock.
People just cannot accept that, because conditions most prevolant today make them look very ordinary indeed that they could possibly be as good as someone like Laker.
Well, if you ask me they could.
well I would say if you asked the 'experts (Mr benaud for example) whether Giles and Croft are up there in ability compared to Laker, they would proably laugh in your face i am afraid
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I highly doubt it. Richie is actually quite a polite person.
He'd probably have a grown-up chat about it and, realising that I had a point, look into it.
 

Swervy

International Captain
Richard said:
I highly doubt it. Richie is actually quite a polite person.
He'd probably have a grown-up chat about it and, realising that I had a point, look into it.
you can fantazise all you want about how Richie would talk to you,and yes he probably be very polite with you..he would take what you say on board,nod along to what you say,look to some passing TV camera,'say 'very interesting'..then go to the pub with Tony,Bill,Chapelli,Tubbs and the boys and have a right laugh that some kid seems to think that Robert Croft is in the same league as Jim Laker as an off spinner:lol:
 

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