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***Official*** Australia in the West Indies 2015

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah look Shiv hasn't played well recently, when when you have 10000+ in the bank at >50, you deserve a bit more rope (even if this form slump is terminal).

And honestly, there's not much to replace him. Lots of guys who might be Test standard but haven't got a solid enough body of work behind them yet to truly bang down the door and get selected.

I would lol if they dropped Shiv to move Hope to 6 and picked Johnson Charles as the new opener.
 

OverratedSanity

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I honestly wouldn't be opposed to Hopes going to 6 and Leon Johnson coming back. I know Shiv has only had a few bad matches but the manner of his dismissals was undoubtedly concerning.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
While it would be nice for a legend of the game to retire completely on his own terms, if the selectors don't think that Chanderpaul merits a place in the side then they're under no obligation to pick him.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Yeah, spot on. If there's to be criticism over this decision (and I agree there should be), it should be based purely on the fact that he's very likely still better than the blokes they'll pick ahead of him.

They don't "owe" him anything. He wasn't doing them a favour by playing for them; it was a mutually beneficial arrangement.
 

Niall

International Coach
Yeah, spot on. If there's to be criticism over this decision (and I agree there should be), it should be based purely on the fact that he's very likely still better than the blokes they'll pick ahead of him.

They don't "owe" him anything. He wasn't doing them a favour by playing for them; it was a mutually beneficial arrangement.
Agreed, it wasn't as if he was playing for free or anything.

Not sure I'd drop him myself, I agree he deserves more time than most, but I suppose if Phil genuinely believes he is a liability then I somewhat understand the decision.

However if they get bundled out for low scores, it will come back and bite him on his arse, brave call I must say.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah, spot on. If there's to be criticism over this decision (and I agree there should be), it should be based purely on the fact that he's very likely still better than the blokes they'll pick ahead of him.

They don't "owe" him anything. He wasn't doing them a favour by playing for them; it was a mutually beneficial arrangement.
I agree he should be picked on merit. I think he is better than anyone they could replace him with. But I do not agree that there is no difference between the dropping of a 2000 runs @50 player and a 11000 runs @50 player.
 
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LegionOfBrad

International Debutant
I just saw the rumour on twitter as well. Which seems to be gathering pace.

I would have given him the series.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Yeah, spot on. If there's to be criticism over this decision (and I agree there should be), it should be based purely on the fact that he's very likely still better than the blokes they'll pick ahead of him.

They don't "owe" him anything. He wasn't doing them a favour by playing for them; it was a mutually beneficial arrangement.
Yeah I won't be criticising the decision because I just don't follow West Indian cricket closely enough to know if it's a poor decision. While it seems unlikely that there's a better alternative in the wings, Chanderpaul was rubbish against England and given that most of their young middle order bats seem to have adapted reasonably well to Test cricket, if they've got someone waiting in the wings then I wouldn't blame the management for wanting a look at said batsman and wanting to give him 2 Tests to experience what the game is like at the highest level. And right now, the greatest challenge for a batsman is playing Australia.
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
The latest rumour now is Shiv might get his send off afterall!!

‘Tiger’ to play against Australia after being initially dropped

MAY 24, 2015

By Sean Devers


It was reported that at least two Directors of the West Indies Cricket (WICB) and its President Dave Cameron managed to override the surprising decision by Chairman of Selectors Clive Lloyd to sack 40-year-old Guyanese Shiv Chanderpaul from the team for the two-Test series against Australia which starts on June 3 in Dominica.

This happened at a WICB retreat at the Accra Beach Hotel in Barbados yesterday. “The WICB is having a retreat with its players, staff and directors and (Anand) Sanasie and another Director were able to convince enough Directors and the President to override Lloyd and the selection panel to give Chanderpaul his last series”, a well placed source told Kaieteur Sport.
Kaieteur Sports’ efforts to make contact with Sanasie all day yesterday proved futile since he was reportedly still in Barbados.
The source also informed that Lloyd is far from pleased that his decision was over ruled. Lloyd, the former Guyana and West Indies Captain, was reportedly told that this is a policy decision to honour Chanderpaul’s contribution to West Indies Cricket over the past 21 years.
Only recently Lloyd failed to select Guyanese left-arm spinner Veerasammy Permaul, who had the most wickets in the Regional series, for the World Cup and did not pick Leon Johnson or Narsingh Deonarine for the English series after they had both played in the preceding series in South Africa.
According to the source, Chanderpaul already has his travel plans to join the squad in Barbados, leaving the veteran batsman a last chance to surpass Brian Lara’s record for most Test runs by a West Indian.
Cameron said he wants to ensure that Chanderpaul gets a fitting send-off when his career finally ends. Cameron, who was re-elected for a second term last March, said he is not pleased with how former players had been treated at the end of their careers.
“I have never really liked how we have ushered out our players, so as president I am always trying to figure out how to honour them,” he said.
“We’re doing it now on a continuous basis, year by year, for their performances, but at the end of a long and illustrious career like Shivnarine Chanderpaul’s we want to ensure that whatever we do, it is well respected and that he knows and the region knows how much we value his services to West Indies cricket.”
Chanderpaul has 11,867 runs from 164 Tests at an average of 51.37 and need another 86 runs to become the West Indian with the most Test runs. He also needs four centuries to join Lara who has 34 as the West Indian with the most Test centuries.
Chanderpaul has been unbeaten 49 times which is a record for top order batsmen. He is one of eight West Indians with a Test average of 50 or more. The great Jamaican George Headley, who was born in Panama and scored 10 centuries from 22 Tests, is the only West Indian to average over 60.
The last of Chanderpaul’s 30 Test tons was an unbeaten 101 against Bangladesh in St Lucia in September last year but the experienced left-hander was not able to reach 100 runs in his last two series he played.
In the away three-Test series against South Africa he only managed 91 before making just 92 in the recent three-Test home series against England.
The big question is can the ‘Tiger’ roar one last time and get the 86 required in a possible four innings against the number one ranked Test team.
Chanderpaul usually displays a tunnel vision when it comes to batting and is not expected to be too distracted by this issue as he prepares for in a Test series which starts in less than two weeks in Dominica.
Chanderpaul will remember that in 2011 he scored the first ever century on that 290sq mile Island when he hit an undefeated 116 against India and was afforded honorary Citizenship of Dominica.
That same year Chanderpaul claimed in a rare public outburst that he was asked to retire by the then selectors after the end of the ICC World Cup and was subsequently dropped from the One-Day International side after he refused. He was never recalled to the ODI team despite his 8778 runs at an average of 41.60, 11 centuries and 59 half-centuries.
Link

SMH yep there is a power struggle at play as to whether he should be given his send off!!..the coach and selectors apparently see things one way and the directors see it another but we're just gonna have to wait and see how this plays out. No doubt if Shiv lifts himself then he'd no doubt be an asset but has father time finally tamed the tiger? That's a question hanging over his head right now.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
cricket.com.au @CricketAus
WI training squad: Bishoo, Blackwood, K Brathwaite, Darren Bravo, Gabriel, Holder, Hope, Permaul, Ramdin, Roach, Samuels, Taylor #WIvAUS

cricket.com.au @CricketAus
Chanderpaul not in WI squad. Clive Lloyd: This was a tough decision. We recognise the significant contribution Chanderpaul has made #WIvAUS

That's that then. I'll make a new thread.
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
The latest rumour now is Shiv might get his send off afterall!!


Link

SMH yep there is a power struggle at play as to whether he should be given his send off!!..the coach and selectors apparently see things one way and the directors see it another but we're just gonna have to wait and see how this plays out. No doubt if Shiv lifts himself then he'd no doubt be an asset but has father time finally tamed the tiger? That's a question hanging over his head right now.


The best thing about that article is how it refers to Shiv as a "top order batsman".. lol.. says much about the author's homework before writing such articles..
 

TheJediBrah

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The best thing about that article is how it refers to Shiv as a "top order batsman".. lol.. says much about the author's homework before writing such articles..
"Top-order" doesn't really have an exact definition.

A no. 4 or even no.5 could be considered "top-order" by some people
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
I'm a fan of some of the young West Indian bats coming through but no way is Chanderpaul behind some of them. Braithwaite, Bravo and Blackwood are really the only blokes you could argue would be ahead of him right now. Even Samuels has been worse overall in recent history.

Absolute shocker of a call.
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
I'm a fan of some of the young West Indian bats coming through but no way is Chanderpaul behind some of them. Braithwaite, Bravo and Blackwood are really the only blokes you could argue would be ahead of him right now. Even Samuels has been worse overall in recent history.

Absolute shocker of a call.
Every dog has it's day!!..the only way Shai Hope and the like are gonna progress is to gain experience at the top level. The emergence of Brathwaite, Bravo and Blackwood over recent years has given our cricket a major boost and if Hope, a kid who is one of the youngest batsmen in our first class history to score a double ton, can join the list then we'd have a top order that could possibly flourish for many years together.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
No doubting that Hope has potential, but he's been mismanaged so far IMO:

"Oooh he has a FC double hundred while he's young...get him in the Test team NOW!" was such an incredibly knee-jerk response; he's not an opener and never should have been the one to replace Smith, and I think there's a lot to be said for at least giving guys two-three full seasons of domestic stuff to see if they genuinely are up to it; I mean, no shortage of other sides have been burned before by bringing in promising youngsters on the back of a fantastic debut season only to see them found out and without the knowledge of their games to adapt.

So yeah, exposure at the top level might help him; but he should at least be playing some A-team tours before coming in at age 21. It's not like he's completely dominated FC cricket to date either -- he's been strong this year, but a career average of 32 after 15 games doesn't suggest someone who is plainly too good to learn anything more from domestic cricket.

tl;dr Shai Hope certainly has talent and potential and, but debuting him -- let alone as an opener -- came too early IMO.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
"Top-order" doesn't really have an exact definition.

A no. 4 or even no.5 could be considered "top-order" by some people

Not really.. To me, it has always been obvious that the top 3 or 4 is what you call top order... 4 to 6 or 7 is the middle order and in that, you generally refer to 6-8 as the lower middle order and then the tail. It is obvious that if they consider a guy who batted 5 almost all the time, irrespective of the team needs, as "top order", it is quite valid to question how much they know the game.
 

Tangles

International Vice-Captain
To me it read like the author separating batsmen from the lower order. Rather than making an argument of middle vs top.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
I don't think anyone warrants a farewell series. If you take the idea that players should retire when they like and not when it's convenient for other people, as I do, then you can't then turn around and say a player warrants selection not on merit but sentiment.

I definitely don't think Shiv should be dropped. But that's because I still believe he's one of the best six batsmen available, not because he's somehow deserving of being selected despite not being worth selection on merit. That's insane. If he's not more likely to score runs than Hope or whoever else from outside the team, he should be out on his arse.
I love you sometimes
 

TheJediBrah

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Not really.. To me, it has always been obvious that the top 3 or 4 is what you call top order... 4 to 6 or 7 is the middle order and in that, you generally refer to 6-8 as the lower middle order and then the tail. It is obvious that if they consider a guy who batted 5 almost all the time, irrespective of the team needs, as "top order", it is quite valid to question how much they know the game.
not really, at all

it's entirely up to how the individual sees it. To me, Top 3 is top order. But I'm sensible enough to realise that someone may consider no. 5 "top order" by their definition, even if I don't agree.
 

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