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Yuvraj Singh

Swervy

International Captain
again..you dont seem to take into account the added factor of pressure and intensity at international level..some players dont cope with this at all well..and yet some others (two examples being David Gower and Bob Willis) thrive in the international arena,and did relativly poorly in domestic cricket..the same can happen with captaincy, there is a huge difference between captaining a domestic team and an international team
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Bob Willis did relatively poorly at domestic level, now, did he? So 899 wickets at 24.99 (with an economy-rate of 2.8-an-over) is poor, now, is it?
Not to mention the fact that it's better than his international record.
For every example of someone who failed at domestic level and succeeded at international level or vice-versa, there are many examples of those who did well at both.
The old crap about "added pressure" meanwhile cuts no mustard - as I've said countless times, when you're in the middle, everything else disappears. The best players don't let anything bother them when they're doing what they do best.
 

twctopcat

International Regular
Richard said:
Bob Willis did relatively poorly at domestic level, now, did he? So 899 wickets at 24.99 (with an economy-rate of 2.8-an-over) is poor, now, is it?
Not to mention the fact that it's better than his international record.
For every example of someone who failed at domestic level and succeeded at international level or vice-versa, there are many examples of those who did well at both.
The old crap about "added pressure" meanwhile cuts no mustard - as I've said countless times, when you're in the middle, everything else disappears. The best players don't let anything bother them when they're doing what they do best.
And you've been in the middle during a test in front of thousands and possibly millions on tv have you?? You're looking at it a bit scientifically aren't you, things aren't as black and white as you make out. It's just some people "appear" to be under more pressure than others, perhaps that is the difference between the good and the bad.
 

Swervy

International Captain
Richard said:
Bob Willis did relatively poorly at domestic level, now, did he? So 899 wickets at 24.99 (with an economy-rate of 2.8-an-over) is poor, now, is it?
Not to mention the fact that it's better than his international record.
For every example of someone who failed at domestic level and succeeded at international level or vice-versa, there are many examples of those who did well at both.
The old crap about "added pressure" meanwhile cuts no mustard - as I've said countless times, when you're in the middle, everything else disappears. The best players don't let anything bother them when they're doing what they do best.

well in response to what you have said about Willis.....Warwickshire fans always had a major gripe with Willis, why can he perform brilliantly at test level but not for his county...go ask any Warwickshire supporter from the late 70's and early 80's.

the reason was, that he thrived in the pressure situation that test cricket provided, he upped his effort levels.

Some people (Hick) didnt thrive under such conditions. Hick was a major talent (probably the most talent county player we have seen for 30 odd years), but get him in a pressure situation where you have Ambrose coming in from one end,Walsh from another,then Bishop etc...or whoever, Hick generally buckled under the scrutiny of millions of eyes watching his every move.

The game isnt as black and white as you make it out to be, that is why cricket is the number one sport in my opinion.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Well, then, it seems Warwicks fans of the '70s and '80s have misplaced misgivings.
Maybe he didn't produce 8-fors when the opposition was chasing 100-odd for Warwicks, but he still did better for them than for England. That's fact. Hence, the argument is bust.
I personally dispute very strongly that Hick was a major talent, probably the most talented county player we have seen for 30 odd years. I would say that he had one major flaw in his technique that was exploited by the best bowlers - county or international. I don't think it was anything to do with being unable to handle pressure at all. In fact, the fact that he was such a brilliant ODI player, a game that attracts even bigger audiences than the Test game, hammers that home even more for me. It was nothing temperamental whatsoever - it was all about a technical shortcoming.
Any player who's played the game in front of big audiences will tell you that none of that matters at all when you get into the middle - it all disappears. Tendulkar has said it countless times - if he genuinely worried about the pressure of a billion people's hopes hinging on him, far from not being able to play, he'd probably have committed suicide by now.
The game isn't black and white - but nor is it 4294967296 shades of grey or 4294967296 different colours. As some would have you believe.
Anyway, the basic point of the matter is, for every example of someone who failed at domestic level and succeeded at international level or vice-versa, there are many examples of those who did well at both. Aside from the "pressure" stuff, this is what matters.
 

ReallyCrazy

Banned
Cactus said:
even though i'm getting a bit of track....what's this Anti Ganguly Club??? i'm officially their number ! supporter.....if the founder is in need of any donations, they should talk to me! i'd be only to glad to help!

What?? What the hell u on about?? You have to get through me first!
 

Swervy

International Captain
Richard said:
Well, then, it seems Warwicks fans of the '70s and '80s have misplaced misgivings.
Maybe he didn't produce 8-fors when the opposition was chasing 100-odd for Warwicks, but he still did better for them than for England. That's fact. Hence, the argument is bust.
I personally dispute very strongly that Hick was a major talent, probably the most talented county player we have seen for 30 odd years. I would say that he had one major flaw in his technique that was exploited by the best bowlers - county or international. I don't think it was anything to do with being unable to handle pressure at all. In fact, the fact that he was such a brilliant ODI player, a game that attracts even bigger audiences than the Test game, hammers that home even more for me. It was nothing temperamental whatsoever - it was all about a technical shortcoming.
Any player who's played the game in front of big audiences will tell you that none of that matters at all when you get into the middle - it all disappears. Tendulkar has said it countless times - if he genuinely worried about the pressure of a billion people's hopes hinging on him, far from not being able to play, he'd probably have committed suicide by now.
The game isn't black and white - but nor is it 4294967296 shades of grey or 4294967296 different colours. As some would have you believe.
Anyway, the basic point of the matter is, for every example of someone who failed at domestic level and succeeded at international level or vice-versa, there are many examples of those who did well at both. Aside from the "pressure" stuff, this is what matters.
in the early days, Hick was brilliant vs almost all types of bowling, I seem to remember him murdering a WI attack for about 170 in no time at all before he qualified for England...I do think he lost some of his abilty due to confidence problems.

ODI's are considered by many players as ten a penny, test cricket is that more tense as in reality that is what most teams are striving to win...anyway,the rules of the game in ODI are more heavily favoured towards the batsman (short pitched bowling) so Hick could be fairly certain he didnt have to worry about getting out to a ball hurtling towards his head, unlike in tests, where you never really know if the ball is going to be short, on a length or full pitched. For another example of this, see Bevan.

Anyway...I think you will find that the majority of Willis' wickets in domestic cricket were before he was a major player in test matches. After playing international cricket on a regular basis, his performances in county cricket were no where near as intense as they were in international cricket.

same with david gower, he rarely put in a good year at county level, even before he was picked to play for England, and yet as soon as he was picked to play for England, he smacked his first ball for 4 and never looked back.....but even after that...he didnt perform brilliantly at domestic level.

Those players thrived in the pressure cooker environment of test cricket..some player do...others dont
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Hick did indeed score a 172 against Patterson, Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop in 1988. No-one really knows how well they bowled that day. If they bowled like they normally did, it would have been some innings.
Your second paragraph, meanwhile, backs up exactly what I had just said - Hick's failings in Test-cricket are nothing whatsoever to do with "pressure", simply differences in laws and situations, and difference in neccesary techniques. And very few players consider ODIs "ten-a-penny", because you get far more pennies for ODIs than Test-matches nowadays. And even if they were, it doesn't alter the fact that Hick succeeded in one and failed in the other.
If you want to believe that about Willis, fine, but I'll wait until I get some statistical evidence before believing it. Nothing alters the fact that he did better overall domestically than internationally.
As for Gower, did I ever dispute that he was poor in domestic cricket? No. He was one of the few players who did better in internationals than in domestic games. However, these players are anomalies in the trend, they do not make-up the trend.
 

Swervy

International Captain
taken from cricinfo...about Bob willis

'......But it was for England that he saved his best performances'

he only took 350 wickets for Warwickshire in thirteen seasons
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Nonetheless he took them at a damn good average.
Don't judge a bowler by how many wickets he took, judge him by how cheaply he took them.
Otherwise Walsh would be better than Marshall. Indeed, he'd be better than Holding, Garner, Roberts and Ambrose, too, and I don't think he was in any of those cases.
 

Swervy

International Captain
i think he probably had a much better average when he played for Surrey than when he played for warwickshire.
 

Swervy

International Captain
but the point is that Willis found domestic cricket unchallenging when compared to tests especially in the time he was with warwickshire
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
And you'll do the same?
Well, obviously (if you can) judge on how many of the wickets were earned through good deliveries. Surely that goes without saying?
But averages are far more important than number of wickets. I'd prefer 45 wickets at 20 for a season's work than 90 at 34 anyday.
But of course, if you possibly can it's fair to judge how many of the wickets were actually to the credit of the bowler.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Swervy said:
but the point is that Willis found domestic cricket unchallenging when compared to tests especially in the time he was with warwickshire
Of course he found domestic cricket unchallenging compared to Tests - duh, anyone would. Test-cricket is a hell of a lot harder than domestic cricket, whoever you play for.
So what? Willis still did better at domestic cricket than internationals, as you'd expect.
 

Swervy

International Captain
taken from wisden 1985

Bob Willis-An assessment by David Frith

'he was not always quite a universal favourite at Edgbaston.many warwickshire supporters were resentful because he seemed to be giving more for his country than his county'

'Willis took 285 Championship wickets for his county (Warwickshre) at an average of 25.51.Clearly, with 325 test wickets at 25.20 he takes his place in the Hall Of fame as an England bowler of immense stature,but with relatively scant county acheivement to go with it'

For warwickshire:

1979 11wickets at 36.45
1980 35wickets at 27.40
1981 13wickets at 28.53
1982 26wickets at 34.30
1983 21wickets at 37.38
1984 9wickets at 42.22

For england
season 1978/79 20wickets at 23.05
season 1979 10wickets at 29.80
season 1979/80 3wickets at 74.66
season 1980 14wickets at 29.07
season 1981 29wickets at 22.96
season 1981/82 15wickets at 30.06
season 1982 25wickets at 22.08
season 1982/83 18wickets at 27.00
season 1983 20wickets at 13.65
season 1983/84 14wickets at 25.14
season 1984 6wickets at 61.16

they kinda look like the figures of a man who maybe wasnt so successful in domestic cricket but very successful at test level..for those last few seasons at least...hence Warwickshire fans attitude towards him.

i dont think he meant it like that, but that was the kind of person he was..same with Gower, and really Botham,and probably a number of players....the rush one must get from playing test cricket seems to gee these players up

PS willis actually had a lower bowling average in tests than he did in championship cricket for warwickshire
 

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