At what point do we accept David Warner is...

[Blocky]

Thing is, while Styen is great, there are so many class opening bowlers. Really there is no other player in world cricket at the moment close to Warner as an opener.

Let me put my WindiesWeathers hat on and remind you that Kraigg Braithwaite and Mohammad Hafeez scored runs at a higher average in 2014 - they just played less tests. Braithwaite scored runs at about the same rate per match as Warner and had less failures in the year.

Warner has a much higher strike rate, granted. And I think he's the best opener in world cricket but to be honest, every single team outside of Sri Lanka struggled to find a good spinner in 2014. The only two who performed were Shakib-Al-Hasan and Herath. I'd say Shakib-Al-Hasan was MVP of the year, but just played in an unfancy side.

Meanwhile, Steyn had a 19.56 average over 39 wickets in 8 tests with a bowling attack that includes Morkel and Philander. That's why South Africa continue to win almost every time they play and Australia only tend to win at home against teams who can't face pace.

 

[Blocky]

It'd be an exotic bet, but imagine the odds you coulda got on:

"A guy who'd make his international debut in 20/20 without having played one FC game would become one of test cricket's greatest openers of all time".

Yeah, it's full credit to Warner and in some regards the Australian system in my view - because he really was just selected as a guy who had a great eye and could hit a long ball and for the first year, that's how he played - then suddenly he started scoring consistent runs at first class level. I'd love to know what training methods were prescribed to him and who acted as his agent to take him from "Every ball must go for six" to "I'm going to average over 60 as an opening batsman in an era where opening batsmen just don't average highly"

 

[Furball]

Where do people get this idea that Warner had a crap T20 technique?

 

[Red]

Where do people get this idea that Warner had a crap T20 technique?

Don't think anyone said that tbf

 

[Cabinet96]

Let me put my WindiesWeathers hat on and remind you that Kraigg Braithwaite and Mohammad Hafeez scored runs at a higher average in 2014 - they just played less tests. Braithwaite scored runs at about the same rate per match as Warner and had less failures in the year.

Warner has a much higher strike rate, granted. And I think he's the best opener in world cricket but to be honest, every single team outside of Sri Lanka struggled to find a good spinner in 2014. The only two who performed were Shakib-Al-Hasan and Herath. I'd say Shakib-Al-Hasan was MVP of the year, but just played in an unfancy side.

Meanwhile, Steyn had a 19.56 average over 39 wickets in 8 tests with a bowling attack that includes Morkel and Philander. That's why South Africa continue to win almost every time they play and Australia only tend to win at home against teams who can't face pace.

Hafeez and Braithwaite are OK, but I still don't consider them near Warner's level, who has been awesome bar a couple away series in 2013 for over three years now. I've always been a huge Steyn fanboi, but if you were to do a list of the top 10 openers and top 10 new ball bowlers I think the difference between 1 and every other ranking would be greater in the opener list. Steyn is a better player, but the overall level of opening bowlers is so much higher.

 

[Contra]

Warner averaged 24 across 8 innings in India and 23 across 6 innings in England in 2013. Don't get me wrong I love watching Warner bat (yes even when he's bashing India around) but to say he's MVP is not something I'd agree with. His success has largely come at home and he's had one really awesome series against SA in SA. Also while Warner's strike rate is probably the next best after Sehwag, I feel that strike rates in general have improved and 120-130 ball 100's are a lot easier to score imo.

 

[Blocky]

The thread relates more so to his exploits in 2014. If he continues to play like he did in 2014 for the next few years then you'll be speaking of him in the same terms that Sehwag was in his prime - his numbers were that good.

A century every three innings as an opening batsman, fifty or more every two innings, a strike rate over 80 and an averaged over 60 as an opening batsman having faced South Africa in South Africa and Pakistan in the UAE.

 

[cnerd123]

Steyns a great bowler but he isn't the best in the world with the with the new ball atm.

 

[BackFootPunch]

This thread has made me think of baseball stats. There's one in particular called Wins Above Replacement (WAR), which evaluates how many more wins a player has contributed to the team than an average replacement player would have. Hitting, base running and fielding are all taken into account. And the relevant stats for pitchers. Obviously in the MLB they have a much longer season (162 games), so a player who has an exceptional season may have a WAR of somewhere around 8-10. Their contributions to the team over the whole season have effectively resulted in 8-10 more wins than could have been expected if the average player in that position had replaced them. It's considered a really valuable stat because it goes beyond just the traditional numbers like batting average, home runs, and runs batted in (like going beyond just batting average and strike rate in cricket).

An equivalent stat in cricket would be fascinating, though I'm not really sure how you'd come up with it. I do think Flem's point would come through if it were possible though. As you would treat opening batsmen as different to others, you'd see that someone like Warner would contribute relatively more to his team than a very good middle order bat, because of the huge gap between Warner and the average replacement. The amount the Warner brings to his team compared to just having an average test opener is, I think, relatively more than having one of the good middle order batsmen. Harder to pick between Steyn and Warner - it's probably very, very close.

 

[akilana]

AB is more valuable to a side than Warner is.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Steyns a great bowler but he isn't the best in the world with the with the new ball atm.

Yeah, but put Steyn in the Indian team and they'd be no 1 in the world and winning overseas. Put Warner in the Indian team and the biggest effect is that opposition won't declare and set them run chases. They'd just draw more often.

 

[Red]

Yeah, but put Steyn in the Indian team and they'd be no 1 in the world and winning overseas. Put Warner in the Indian team and the biggest effect is that opposition won't declare and set them run chases. They'd just draw more often.

Hardly fair to use India as the example.

Every other test playing nation has at least one good bowler.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Steyns a great bowler but he isn't the best in the world with the with the new ball atm.

Yeah, feel over the last year or so his new ball ouutswinger hasn''t been as incredible as it once was.

Speaks volumes of him though that he's managed to remain just as deadly overall.

 

[cnerd123]

He's the best fast bowler to have for a second or third or even fourth spell.

Just produces chaos out of nothing.

 

[tooextracool]

Warner averaged 24 across 8 innings in India and 23 across 6 innings in England in 2013. Don't get me wrong I love watching Warner bat (yes even when he's bashing India around) but to say he's MVP is not something I'd agree with. His success has largely come at home and he's had one really awesome series against SA in SA. Also while Warner's strike rate is probably the next best after Sehwag, I feel that strike rates in general have improved and 120-130 ball 100's are a lot easier to score imo.

Good quality swing bowlers will always do a number on him in the right conditions as his front foot technique is non-existent. He is extremely strong on the cuts, pulls and anything square of the wicket, but as bowlers start to work him out by trying different things like bowling around the wicket to cramp him for room and pitching the ball up earlier on during his visits to the crease, he is likely to find run making to be a lot trickier than he has thus far in his career.

 

[Swingpanzee]

Yeah, feel over the last year or so his new ball ouutswinger hasn''t been as incredible as it once was.

Indeed, it speaks volumes of SA's lack of depth that he hasn't been dropped yet.

 

[Dan]

Good quality swing bowlers will always do a number on him in the right conditions as his front foot technique is non-existent. He is extremely strong on the cuts, pulls and anything square of the wicket, but as bowlers start to work him out by trying different things like bowling around the wicket to cramp him for room and pitching the ball up earlier on during his visits to the crease, he is likely to find run making to be a lot trickier than he has thus far in his career.

Don't really agree with this tbh. I think his front foot technique is generally pretty sound (this morning notwithstanding). He's undone in bowler-friendly conditions by going at too many balls with hard hands, playing out in front of himself and hence his edges fly at a catchable height. It's the trade off you make to be a dominating opener, really -- if you want to defend with hard hands to let you push into your drives more easily, your edges will carry far better.

 

[Jono]

Good quality swing bowlers will always do a number on him in the right conditions as his front foot technique is non-existent. He is extremely strong on the cuts, pulls and anything square of the wicket, but as bowlers start to work him out by trying different things like bowling around the wicket to cramp him for room and pitching the ball up earlier on during his visits to the crease, he is likely to find run making to be a lot trickier than he has thus far in his career.

Huge return from TEC. I still see you are the harshest critic of cricketers on this forum

 

[Spark]

His major flaw a year ago was bounce more than swing, which he showed in England that he has absolutely no issues facing because he covers his stumps so effectively. Kinda cliche criticism, that one.

 

[Antihippy]

but as bowlers start to work him out by trying different things like bowling around the wicket to cramp him for room and pitching the ball up earlier on during his visits to the crease, he is likely to find run making to be a lot trickier than he has thus far in his career.

Diiiidn't quite work out for india did it now.