• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

At what point do we accept David Warner is...

Teja.

Global Moderator
Flem the thing is you isolate opening too much from runs in general which is antithetical to discussing 'value' which is basically pure rune/wickets.

The only time where what you're saying would be acceptable is if you win matches for balance. It's pretty ridic to say you'd rather have Warner than Steyn because of this as Steyn's value to provide cricketing units is far more than Warner's to provide cricketing units.

I've had a fair few drinks, someone like Cribbrex to come in and give the value perspective from a simulation angle/elaborate better than me.
 

Maximas

Cricketer Of The Year
Shakib. Ashwin at home. Babar and Shah at home.

Shakib is more valuable than Herath imo. Still a good spinner, also a good batsman.

I also think the gap between Warner and the next best test opener is a lot wider than the gap between Herath and Shakib as pure bowlers.
nah

I've seen no other spinner bowling legally bar Herath able to consistently do the business everywhere against anyone, which apparently makes Warner stand out in his craft to the point of world MVP levels, no consistency to this argument and I don't buy it
 
Last edited:

Flem274*

123/5
Flem the thing is you isolate opening too much from runs in general which is antithetical to discussing 'value' which is basically pure rune/wickets.

The only time where what you're saying would be acceptable is if you win matches for balance. It's pretty ridic to say you'd rather have Warner than Steyn because of this as Steyn's value to provide cricketing units is far more than Warner's to provide cricketing units.

I've had a fair few drinks, someone like Cribbrex to come in and give the value perspective from a simulation angle/elaborate better than me.
Runs/wickets is too simplistic sorry. You're being far too theoretical and spreadsheety.

There is only one player in the world who can both open the batting and score billions of runs. No one else has a player in their side like Warner.

Who do you think Australia are at worst the second best team in the world, and possibly the best? Their #3 and #5 are spuds, Haddin is a spud away from home and they have a kid at #6. They're also determined to drop their best spinner by miles for bits and pieces cricketers and have an unhealthy fascination with Mitchell Starc.

It's because they have an awesome bowling attack right? Well so do South Africa, and New Zealand and England aren't far behind.

Australia are kept in the hunt because a nutcase opener keeps smashing the likes of Dale Steyn around the park. Warner gives Australia a huge advantage because he doesn't just score lots more runs than the other openers in the world - he dominates the bowlers. No one else has a Warner card and while it's not Steyn's Charizard it doesn't matter because Warner is the only good water type in the world and he's ****ing Blastoise.

That makes Warner the MVP.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Are you saying that, given the choice, Australia would rather have Warner opening than Sanga at number 3?
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
Warner isn't MVP or anything. Sangakkara, Steyn and Matthews will all be more valuable to any side including Australia. Not sure about Herath (India will take Warner ahead of Herath, for example).
 

Maximas

Cricketer Of The Year
Would they really? Would have thought all their overseas tests and even the home England series would have exposed the need for quality spin rather than quality openers, of which they have one and the other is able to contribute meaningfully sporadically but be ok for enough of the time. The argument that Warner is in a league of his own in his trade doesn't seem to apply to Herath when flem compares him to bowlers 'at home' and Shakib's batting ability, like why doesn't unique quality matter for spinners and openers?
 

Swingpanzee

International Regular
I agree with Flemingo (see what I did there? hehe :unsure:) - Warner is probably the only opener along with Vijay who has looked untroubled - and indeed excelled- almost everywhere in the world. And unlike Vijay, he can score at a good rate early on too, which means that he is especially valuable in second innings and in taking the game away from the opponent in probably even a session or two. Plus he's a good, reliable fielder. Sledges pretty often and serves as trash-talker in the team as well :ph34r:

At the moment there are a dearth of good openers you would back against any bowling attack in any conditions. Warner is a huge boost to the team as thus. As for Steyn yes any team would like him but I'd rather have Warner and Harris/Johnson/Morkel/Roach/good quick in my team than average opener + Steyn.
 

Daemon

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I agree with Flemingo (see what I did there? hehe :unsure:) - Warner is probably the only opener along with Vijay who has looked untroubled - and indeed excelled- almost everywhere in the world. And unlike Vijay, he can score at a good rate early on too, which means that he is especially valuable in second innings and in taking the game away from the opponent in probably even a session or two. Plus he's a good, reliable fielder. Sledges pretty often and serves as trash-talker in the team as well :ph34r:

At the moment there are a dearth of good openers you would back against any bowling attack in any conditions. Warner is a huge boost to the team as thus. As for Steyn yes any team would like him but I'd rather have Warner and Harris/Johnson/Morkel/Roach/good quick in my team than average opener + Steyn.
I know where you guys are coming from, but I guess I'm just seeing it differently.

Vijay
Warner
Sanga
Smith
AB
McCullum
Mathews
Johnson
Harris
Steyn
Herath

Who's the most valuable player? Steyn. He adds more to the side than Warner does.

If you think of value as who will leave the biggest hole if he leaves and is replaced by the next best alternative then yeah flem's got a point.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Are you saying that, given the choice, Australia would rather have Warner opening than Sanga at number 3?
I think he's saying he'd rather have Warner opening and Amla at 3 then Rogers/Vijay opening and Sanga at 3.

And its a decent point isn't it?
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I think he's saying he'd rather have Warner opening and Amla at 3 then Rogers/Vijay opening and Sanga at 3.

And its a decent point isn't it?
That is a decent point. So he is claiming MVP in the sense that Warner has the biggest gap in between what he does and what the next best does at his position, right?

Herath a pretty good shout for that too (as has been mentioned).
 

akilana

International 12th Man
I agree with Flemingo (see what I did there? hehe :unsure:) - Warner is probably the only opener along with Vijay who has looked untroubled - and indeed excelled- almost everywhere in the world. And unlike Vijay, he can score at a good rate early on too, which means that he is especially valuable in second innings and in taking the game away from the opponent in probably even a session or two. Plus he's a good, reliable fielder. Sledges pretty often and serves as trash-talker in the team as well :ph34r:

At the moment there are a dearth of good openers you would back against any bowling attack in any conditions. Warner is a huge boost to the team as thus. As for Steyn yes any team would like him but I'd rather have Warner and Harris/Johnson/Morkel/Roach/good quick in my team than average opener + Steyn.
that attack is not going to win you plenty of matches in subcontinent and Warner is yet to prove his worth in subcontinent. I am not sure how he will handle good swing bowling.

I would back Vijay, Rogers and a strong middle order with Steyn in the side to win you more matches in different conditions.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
Runs/wickets is too simplistic sorry. You're being far too theoretical and spreadsheety.

There is only one player in the world who can both open the batting and score billions of runs. No one else has a player in their side like Warner.

Who do you think Australia are at worst the second best team in the world, and possibly the best? Their #3 and #5 are spuds, Haddin is a spud away from home and they have a kid at #6. They're also determined to drop their best spinner by miles for bits and pieces cricketers and have an unhealthy fascination with Mitchell Starc.

It's because they have an awesome bowling attack right? Well so do South Africa, and New Zealand and England aren't far behind.

Australia are kept in the hunt because a nutcase opener keeps smashing the likes of Dale Steyn around the park. Warner gives Australia a huge advantage because he doesn't just score lots more runs than the other openers in the world - he dominates the bowlers. No one else has a Warner card and while it's not Steyn's Charizard it doesn't matter because Warner is the only good water type in the world and he's ****ing Blastoise.

That makes Warner the MVP.
I actually think you have a legit point in that Warner might be the most valuable batsman in the world by virtue of position.

Where I think there is a flaw is that on a 1:1 basis, bowlers are a decent bit more valuable as individuals due to the nature of test cricket in the last 90 or so years. Batsman make up for this over careers due to longevity but on a value per match or medium term basis, an exceptional bowlers adds quite a bit more.

Even on an absolute dream green top like yesterday, I'd rather NZ had Steyn than Warner and his value only increases as conditions for batting gets more favorable. 5 wickets @ 22 is a game breaking advantage for which your opener has to average closer to 65-70 reliably to make up for on a game to game basis.
 

nevermind

U19 Debutant
I can see the point in regards to Warner being one of the most valuable players relative to their position. Good shout. Most other teams not named India/Aus would kill for him. However I still think adding a Steyn/Sanga type player would be better. They are just something else. I'd love to be 1 for none if it meant Sanga was walking to the wicket instead of Watto.

Whats interesting is Mathews being mentioned in the same breath as Steyn/Sanga... Really? I'm a big Mathews fan, and I've loved watching him in the last year (Lord's especially, or maybe it was the 2nd test...), but over Steyn/Sanga? No thanks.

Also Herath? I'll stick with Lyon and take Steyn again here. Harris/Steyn/Johnson, incredible.
 
Last edited:

Swingpanzee

International Regular
Harris/Steyn/Johnson would be the most visceral fast bowling attack of current times
 
Last edited:

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Cricket isn't a draft. Steyn is going to bring more to your side than Warner, it doesn't matter what the next best alternatives are.
Yeah but the drop off from Steyn to Harris and Jimmeh is much less than the drop off from Warner to any other opener.

A good post for once from Phlegm.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Flem the thing is you isolate opening too much from runs in general which is antithetical to discussing 'value' which is basically pure rune/wickets.

The only time where what you're saying would be acceptable is if you win matches for balance. It's pretty ridic to say you'd rather have Warner than Steyn because of this as Steyn's value to provide cricketing units is far more than Warner's to provide cricketing units.

I've had a fair few drinks, someone like Cribbrex to come in and give the value perspective from a simulation angle/elaborate better than me.
It's not just the runs Warner scores, it's how he scores the runs that makes him so valuable.

He's also doing that with the pressure of having half a middle order behind him at most.
 

Cabinet96

Global Moderator
Thing is, while Styen is great, there are so many class opening bowlers. Really there is no other player in world cricket at the moment close to Warner as an opener.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
It'd be an exotic bet, but imagine the odds you coulda got on:

"A guy who'd make his international debut in 20/20 without having played one FC game would become one of test cricket's greatest openers of all time".
 

Top