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Thread: Rate your current team against history

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    International Coach Hurricane's Avatar
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    Rate your current team against history

    A conversation between myself and DOG was threatening to break out in the blackcaps tour thread so I thought I would bring it in here and invite other fans to compare their team to previous editions over the years:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    Blackcaps deserve team of the year over the ABs. Otherwise you would just give to rugby every year.
    I read today in the paper that we have gone 6 series in a row without defeat. Even the 1980s team only strung together 4 series in a row unbeaten. This is now IMHO the second best blackcaps side ever with the 1980s crew still leading the way. To overtake them we would need to win series away in Australia and England. I am not even going to bother listing SA in that list as we might as well fly to the moon first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Days of Grace View Post
    I don't know about that. The Australian and England sides of the mid 1980s were a lot weaker than now. Apart from Wright, Hadlee and Crowe, the current team is just about better across the board.
    As far as the blackcaps go I could be persuaded to swing either way between the 1980s edition and this edition. But will promote the 1980s team to create some conversation.

    Firstly to compare to 1980s you need to think about which 1980s team. Are we including Bruce Edgar, What about Andrew Jones...I have gone with this team for comparison purposes:

    3rd Test: Australia v New Zealand at Perth, Nov 30-Dec 4, 1985 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

    John Wright
    Bruce Edgar
    JF Reid
    Martin Crowe
    Coney
    Jeff Crowe
    Hadlee
    Smith
    Bracewell
    Lance Cairns
    Ewen Chatfield

    For the 2014 version please use the boxing day test side or for fans from other countries whoever played your last test or should have been playing it if there was an obvious omission due to short term injury like Herath.

    So the reasons why the 1980s side was better
    1) It had two opening batsman - Bruce Edgar apart from being my fav player was no slouch despite his low test match batting average. He consistently played important knocks and got us off to safe (and slow) starts. The 2014 version still has Hamish Rutherford who everyone knows is on borrowed time because there is no one else. John Wright was also significantly better than Tom Latham is right now although Tom will catch up with time and experience.
    2) JF Reid was always a curious creature to me - he was just suddenly in the side and he just looked like he belonged and scored runs. He would finish with a test match batting average of 46. Kane will go on to be a much better batsman when he hits his prime. But JF Reid was decent and worthy of comparison.
    3) Martin Crowe is our greatest ever batsman
    4) Coney vs McCullum. Coney averaged 37 which in those days was pretty good and was no weak link.
    5) Jeff Crowe sucked pretty much and was in the team because he played 1st class cricket in Australia so he must be good mentality prevailed with his selection.

    6) The bowling - the supporting cast was better than the 2014 edition. Bracewell was simply better by a country mile than Mark Craig, and Chatfield vs Wagner. Well both of them were o are (in Wagner's case) completely different bowlers I will call it a tie on worth to the team. I am saying that based on Wagner's overall performance this year and since selection not this last game or his stint in county cricket.

    Where the argument really gets interesting is comparing Hadlee vs the combined impact of Southee and Boult. In the 2nd innings of the boxing day test Southee and Boult took 8 wickets. Hadlee didn't often take 8 wickets. Sometimes he did (well nine on one occasion) but not often. But on the other hand Hadlee was worth two Southee's in my opinion. He was that incisive. If you had Hadlee in your team you wouldn't have opened him up in a trade for Australia's two opening bowlers at the time. Most CW pundits might have traded him for Marshall but that would be about the only trade of the time that you would make. Perhaps in the boxing day test Sri Lanka don't make 400 in their 2nd dig if we had've had Hadlee Chats and Bracewell. Maybe Hadlee would have accounted for that chap who scored 150 early doors. All Hadlee ever asked for was a pitch that just had a little bit in it. Not a lot just a bit. The CHCH pitch would have suited him.

    I realise this OP has focused on the blackcaps. Because that is where the discussion started but wanted to open up to other teams. I think this Australian side has the makings of a good one, maybe not their best road team but decent enough.
    India look like a side that is one opening bowler away from being there. But enough of my thoughts what are yours....
    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    I got great enjoyment in going to the game and shouting "WHY THE **** ISN'T THIS GAME BEING PLAYED AT THE BASIN?!>!?!?" to reasonably significant cheers from the sparse crowd
    Proudly against the bring back Bennett movement since he is injury prone and won't last 5 days.

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    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
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    Thats a better XI on paper but our team right now actually consistently plays together and are all pretty much at the top of their game, which isn't true for that 80s side.
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    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    The opening partnership wins it. We could be here all day wondering whether one ATG and three decent bowlers is better or wose than two world class, one decent and one below par bowler.

    India are a Zaheer or a Srinath away from looking good.

    Australia have probably never had a worse batting side.

    Sri Lanka are descending a lull soon when Mahela, Sanga and Fatty are all gone.

    Seff Efrica are steady.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Jeets doesn't really deserve to be bowling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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    International Coach Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    The opening partnership wins it. We could be here all day wondering whether one ATG and three decent bowlers is better or wose than two world class, one decent and one below par bowler

    .

    You are right we could be here all day comparing Hadlee who finished 9th in the 1st edition of CW top 50 to two fellows who are world class but may never crack that 50.


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    Cricketer Of The Year OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    Not as gloomy as it looks, compared to our history. We've always been lambs overseas apart from that period in 2001-2011 where we had all our batsmen and bowlers hit their peaks virtually at the same time.

    I think that's a key to a having a great side. I mean, we've had great batsmen throughout our history, even overseas, and serviceable bowlers, but it never quite clicked together with everyone firing at the same time. With the side we have right now, results are understandably terrible because we don't have the bowlers, and while the batsmen are talented, they aren't quite mature. It says a lot that Kohli is the most experienced batsman in the top order, and Ishant the most experienced bowler. It's good now, though, that with all these players having entered the team almost at the same time, they'll have a chance to mature and hit their primes together.... atleast that's the hope. One other great sign this tour was that Ashwin has figured out at the very elast how to keep things tight overseas, and if he gets a good spinning track, there's no reason why he won't succeed overseas. He seems to have learnt a lot quicker than someone like Kumble, who took ages to get good.

    We'll be great at home as usual, but I back this team to be better overall than the 90s India by a distance. Don't think we'll be as good as 2007-2011, though, because I don't see any of our quicks suddenly becoming world class like Zaheer did.

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    Cricketer Of The Year Xuhaib's Avatar
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    The current Pakistan side is the most boring side in my 20 odd years of cricket watching. We have had worse sides then this but never teams more boring then this. Our pace bowling stocks are at their lowest probably since the time when Imran could not bowl due to shin issues and Sarfraz was declining and our pace attack was Rahid Khan, Azeem Hafeez and Muddasar Nazar.

    The batting though solid is very one dimensional and probably can't buy a run when they step outside of UAE and our only world class batsman is in the twilight of his career. The only positives is our spin bowling stocks which look good even though its major success has been built around a chucker and we have hap a captain who has been able to keep the side controversy free and also highly competitive atleast in familiar conditions despite having a limited talent pool even if it has come at a cost of typical Pakistani flair.

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    International Coach morgieb's Avatar
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    Barring the 80's our batting has never been ****tier. On the other hand, you could argue that in some ways our bowling is stronger than the one of the 2000's.
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    Hall of Fame Member NZTailender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Thats a better XI on paper but our team right now actually consistently plays together and are all pretty much at the top of their game, which isn't true for that 80s side.
    Just had a look at the amount of players we've used in the past 5 years:
    2014: 15
    2013: 21
    2012: 27
    2011: 25
    2010: 27

    Tells a bit of a story.
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    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    Just had a look at the amount of players we've used in the past 5 years:
    2014: 15
    2013: 21
    2012: 27
    2011: 25
    2010: 27

    Tells a bit of a story.
    2010-2012 - openers, middle order, fast bowler injuries, WK, spinner
    2013 - openers, injuries, spinner
    2014 - openers, spinner

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    Hall of Fame Member NZTailender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgieb View Post
    On the other hand, you could argue that in some ways our bowling is stronger than the one of the 2000's.

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    Hall of Fame Member NZTailender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    2010-2012 - openers, middle order, fast bowler injuries, WK, spinner
    2013 - openers, injuries, spinner
    2014 - openers, spinner
    2014 should be 14, really, when you think about the whole Vettori thing.

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    Hall of Fame Member NZTailender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    Just had a look at the amount of players we've used in the past 5 years:
    2014: 15
    2013: 21
    2012: 27
    2011: 25
    2010: 27

    Tells a bit of a story.
    Actually I ****ed this up

    2014: 15 (9 Tests)
    2013: 21 (12)
    2012: 20 (10)
    2011: 17 (5)
    2010: 18 (6)

    Not really as telling.
    Last edited by NZTailender; 30-12-2014 at 11:10 PM.

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    International Captain Maximas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    Sri Lanka are descending a lull soon when Mahela, Sanga and Fatty are all gone.
    Probably, but the team that toured England was as good a Sri Lankan side as I've ever seen play, the team that included Atapattu, Sanath, Sanga, MJ, Vaas and Murali is pretty hard to beat though given the sparseness of talent that has rolled through over the years, Matthews, Eranga, Kaushal and the openers to lead us into a new era one hopes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawood Ahmad View Post

    Hamish, no body knows even name of him
    But Ponting, there's great fame of him

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    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximas View Post
    Probably, but the team that toured England was as good a Sri Lankan side as I've ever seen play, the team that included Atapattu, Sanath, Sanga, MJ, Vaas and Murali is pretty hard to beat though given the sparseness of talent that has rolled through over the years, Matthews, Eranga, Kaushal and the openers to lead us into a new era one hopes
    Yeah it was a good team but Eranga needs to truly step into the shoes of the longest name in fast bowling for this team to go from a good team to rivalling the Murali team.

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    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Didn't Stephen Fleming's side draw 0-0 in Australia, draw in South Africa, beat South Africa in NZ, beat India in NZ 2-0 and draw away 0-0?

    Considering the only world class talent he had to work with were the three allrounders (Cairns, Oram, Vettori) and sometimes Bond that's a fantastic legacy. Both the 80s side and McCullum's side has more toys than Fleming ever had imo.

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