Are we really going to pretend that Tim Southee...

[grecian]

Honestly how is that OverratedSanity post not getting more stick. I mean does he really think anyone here hasn't seen Southee bowl?

He's decent but it's clear that many Test bowlers have achieved more, so have a case to be considered better. Broad and Morkel apart from all the ones mentioned already.

 

[Teja.]

Southee has been scary good for the last couple of years though, better than pretty much everyone else over a reasonable period with the exception of Johnson and around the level of Steyn. That doesn't make him as good as Steyn but it still deserves respect.

My point regarding Anderson is this - He can't be considered as part of the elite pacers in the world along with Harris, Johnson, Steyn and Southee because all of them have done exceptionally away from home in the last two years whereas Anderson hasn't. He's still a very good pace bowler but not in the same league.

Away records of these bowlers in the last two years:

Steyn - 41 wickets in 8 tests @ 21.02
Southee - 35 wickets in 7 tests @ 18.08
Johnson - 28 wickets in 6 tests @ 22.1
Harris - 34 wickets in 7 tests @ 23.1
Anderson - 36 wickets in 12 tests @ 37.4

By no means am I saying that Anderson is a bad bowler just not in the class of these gentlemen and yes, I actually watched most of the cricket.

 

[Teja.]

Honestly how is that OverratedSanity post not getting more stick. I mean does he really think anyone here hasn't seen Southee bowl?

He's decent but it's clear that many Test bowlers have achieved more, so have a case to be considered better. Broad and Morkel apart from all the ones mentioned already.

Broad might be my favourite cricketer in the world and he's not in Southee's galaxy as a test bowler right now.

The reason why Southee hasn't 'achieved more despite being excellent for a long, long while is because NZ doesn't play that very many tests a year.

 

[grecian]

Broad might be my favourite cricketer in the world and he's not in Southee's galaxy as a test bowler right now.

The reason why Southee hasn't 'achieved more despite being excellent for a long, long while is because NZ doesn't play that very many tests a year.

Indeed, and of course if you are going of small sample bases, you really can't say much. 7 Tests is not a way of showing a great, or even conclusively great form.

There's really no reason to do this mass over-rating of Southee ATM, if he's as good as some are saying, he'll prove it.

 

[Spark]

Not in Southee's galaxy is fairly harsh. Broad is a bona fide series winner, that's not to be dismissed lightly.

Morkel, though, yeah. Not close.

 

[Maximas]

Southee has been as good as anyone over the last 2 years and he's done the business all around the world, pretty good reasons to have him up there with the very best, he's proved quite a lot already

 

[hendrix]

The reason why Southee hasn't 'achieved more despite being excellent for a long, long while is because NZ doesn't play that very many tests a year.

I'm reluctant to call 2 years a long, long while. Sure if you're talking about Ryan Harris and Mitchell Johnson then it makes sense for Southee to be well above the likes of Anderson, Broad and Morkel.

But some wouldn't yet put Harris and Johnson up there without a longer period of success in which case the latter 3 have more going for them.

 

[grecian]

Not in Southee's galaxy is fairly harsh. Broad is a bona fide series winner, that's not to be dismissed lightly.

Morkel, though, yeah. Not close.

I don't rate Morkel at all either, but his record isn't awful.

 

[Teja.]

Indeed, and of course if you are going of small sample bases, you really can't say much. 7 Tests is not a way of showing a great, or even conclusively great form.

Point taken but in fairness, Southee has been exceptional home and away over three years with hardly a bad series. The 7 away tests in the last two years thing was merely a small part of this.

Since the beginning of 2012, a good three years, Southee has 83 wickets in 19 tests @ 23.5. Only Steyn has been definitely better than him IMO with Harris and Johnson having a case.

I dunno if you consider 3 years not a very good sample size but surely you were rating Steyn when he was performing similarly three years into when he found his feet in test cricket?

 

[Teja.]

Not in Southee's galaxy is fairly harsh. Broad is a bona fide series winner, that's not to be dismissed lightly.

Morkel, though, yeah. Not close.

Yeah, I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole and I really rate Broad but Southee been constantly been performing at an exceptional level series after series for what seems to be ages now and is definitely superior even if the margin isn't a 'galaxy', IMO.

 

[Teja.]

I'm reluctant to call 2 years a long, long while. Sure if you're talking about Ryan Harris and Mitchell Johnson then it makes sense for Southee to be well above the likes of Anderson, Broad and Morkel.

But some wouldn't yet put Harris and Johnson up there without a longer period of success in which case the latter 3 have more going for them.

Three years is a long time for a fast bowler though. Most ATG pacers have 7-8 great years to put in context so if someone has 3, it's time to stand up and take notice at least.

 

[hendrix]

How long/good was Peter Siddle's peak period? Might give us a nice point of reference between a good bowler having a good period and a someone actually consistently being a sub 25 average guy across conditions.

 

[hendrix]

Three years is a long time for a fast bowler though. Most ATG pacers have 7-8 great years to put in context so if someone has 3, it's time to stand up and take notice at least.

Yeah. But I want to give him this series first. Because if he does well he may be the best away bowler in the world. Bloody tough ask though.

 

[Teja.]

How long/good was Peter Siddle's peak period? Might give us a nice point of reference between a good bowler having a good period and a someone actually consistently being a sub 25 average guy across conditions.

Siddle has averaged sub-25 overall only one year in his career and apart from the one 2008/09 series to South Africa has never averaged sub-25 over an away tour.

 

[grecian]

Point taken but in fairness, Southee has been exceptional home and away over three years with hardly a bad series. The 7 away tests in the last two years thing was merely a small part of this.

Since the beginning of 2012, a good three years, Southee has 83 wickets in 19 tests @ 23.5. Only Steyn has been definitely better than him IMO with Harris and Johnson having a case.

I dunno if you consider 3 years not a very good sample size but surely you were rating Steyn when he was performing similarly three years into when he found his feet in test cricket?

Possibly but you could probably pick a good three years out of anyone's career. I really don't see that his record away has been that all-encompassing. I wouldn't be going much further than two years though.

 

[hendrix]

Siddle has averaged sub-25 overall only one year in his career and apart from the one 2008/09 series to South Africa has never averaged sub-25 on an away tour.

Well there you go. A sub 25 average over 2 years across all conditions probably isn't just a peak.

Anderson has a couple of years of sub 25 average, and Broad has had 3 years of sub 27 average, although not consecutive. Neither has been consistent across conditions though.

 

[hendrix]

I wouldn't be going much further than two years though.

Haha yeah this is a funny series because it doesn't count for Southee's away average but it does for Anderson and Broad's. Some of the flattest wickets seen in Test cricket and a) no Duke ball and b) no reverse to be had or pitch breakup through days 4 and 5.

Still though, no bowling attack should allow Peter Fulton and Hamish Rutherford to score that many runs.

 

[Flem274*]

Indeed, and of course if you are going of small sample bases, you really can't say much. 7 Tests is not a way of showing a great, or even conclusively great form.

There's really no reason to do this mass over-rating of Southee ATM, if he's as good as some are saying, he'll prove it.

...he has. he's performed in england, aussie, india, sri lanka, west indies and at home. he hasn't played in south africa or the UAE yet. what else is he meant to be doing? or are we only allowed to rate him when he's 35 and has been around the world several times? funny how we don't need to do the same with other bowlers.

 

[grecian]

...he has. he's performed in england, aussie, india, sri lanka, west indies and at home. he hasn't played in south africa or the UAE yet. what else is he meant to be doing? or are we only allowed to rate him when he's 35 and has been around the world several times? funny how we don't need to do the same with other bowlers.

You are allowed to rate him all you like, but the Opening Post is still silly hyperbole.

 

[Flem274*]

It's Howsie.

And for once he's not being hopelessly biased. Southee isn't the definitive second best but he has a case, as do Ryan Harris, Mitchell Johnson and to a lesser extent James Anderson and Vernon Philander unless they can refind their mojos.