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***Official*** New Zealand Domestic Season 2014/15

Flem274*

123/5
Gillespie bowling well (judging by his wicket videos and figures admittedly), two less experienced batsmen scoring tons and CD bowled well. (Y)

I wonder how Worker would feel about a move into the middle order. He's a pretty reasonable limited overs opener but he's never been able to capitalise on starts against the red ball. Maybe a move down where he can be more aggressive would help?

Just quietly he's a white ball opener who can bowl reasonable left arm spin for a 6th bowler. Considering Hesson wants someone who can bowl in the top order, a big Ford Trophy and/or Georgie Pie Super Smash could give him an outside chance.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Bracewell getting swing. Still doesn't look as impressive as Henry but it's the number of overs that count when considering a test 3rd seamer.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
jesse doing a reverse franklin. the way he bats these days he's no better than a test match number nine but he's becoming a solid dobbler. get that pace up to 135 clicks with some sharp swing and the transformation will be complete.
I reckon he's more of a reverse-Astle than a reverse-Franklin, but yeahit's a typically kiwi career path to tread - only in reverse.

Meanwhile, Jeets' misery at home continues.
 

Blocky

Banned
A lot of spin bowling comes down to the mental approach from both batsman and bowler. I'd dare say more batsman are fearful and watchful of Jeetan than they are in NZ. Here he is regarded as a joke who hardly turns the ball and should be going plus 3 per over without much hope for wickets. There he is considered dangerous and therefore played more circumspect and generally gets the rub of the green.

And Ryder is a year off cracking one of the fastest tonnes in the ODI format, just having cracked one of the fastest tonnes in a domestic (non counted) match and had a season at Essex where he turned around a poor start into more useful contributions. But yeah, lets pretend he's suddenly stopped being able to bat due to a low score in the current game.
 

Blocky

Banned
It's not what he's scoring, it's how he's batting.
He batted the same exact way last year for Otago too and still scored a tonne of runs - guarantee you if it were a test match he'd be working harder as he in his own mind wants that 50+ average that no other NZer has.
 

Flem274*

123/5
If he wants that 50+ average so badly then why isn't he gritting his teeth and showing he gives a ****.

I guarantee you if he scores a sensible hundred against a good attack (not even Southee and Boult, some of the others will do) he'll be a hell of a lot closer to the test side. As it stands he has plenty of downhill skiing and just as much "look at all the ****s I give". When you contrast how Jesse Ryder batted against Southee and Boult (did he even last long enough to face Boult) compared to how Stephen Murdoch, a more limited player, gritted his teeth in a game (I can't remember when sorry but I remember watching the innings) and scored a ballsy half century despite being outclassed, it's a no brainer as to what do to with Ryder.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
He batted the same exact way last year for Otago too and still scored a tonne of runs - guarantee you if it were a test match he'd be working harder as he in his own mind wants that 50+ average that no other NZer has.
You can't possibly guarantee that. And does working hard not extend to how he prepares himself mentally and physically previous to his innings'?

And no one's pretending Jesse is a hack based on one innings.

Welcome back, by the way...
 

Blocky

Banned
If he wants that 50+ average so badly then why isn't he gritting his teeth and showing he gives a ****.

I guarantee you if he scores a sensible hundred against a good attack (not even Southee and Boult, some of the others will do) he'll be a hell of a lot closer to the test side. As it stands he has plenty of downhill skiing and just as much "look at all the ****s I give". When you contrast how Jesse Ryder batted against Southee and Boult (did he even last long enough to face Boult) compared to how Stephen Murdoch, a more limited player, gritted his teeth in a game (I can't remember when sorry but I remember watching the innings) and scored a ballsy half century despite being outclassed, it's a no brainer as to what do to with Ryder.
Well, let's leave the judgement until he's been on the NZ A tour and how he operates there. I'd dare say the guy who was so ****ing angry at getting out just after scoring 200 against India is the type of guy who takes run accumulation pretty seriously at test level. The guy who goes out to try and give NZ an edge in ODI Cricket and ensure that we're not dealing with our current woes of being 30 runs after ten overs is also who we need at ODI level.

Jesse has not been managed well, Jesse has also not managed himself well - the problem is that everyone wants him to take full accountability in NZ circles, while in other leagues you see people give him respect, treat him like an adult and for all intents and purposes, he's said to have behaved like one.

You can't possibly guarantee that. And does working hard not extend to how he prepares himself mentally and physically previous to his innings'?

And no one's pretending Jesse is a hack based on one innings.

Welcome back, by the way...
I can pretty much guarantee Jesse will have better results on the field than most of the guys we're selecting in our interchangeable positions. That's the talent of the man. He feels like he belongs at the top level and feels like he can dominate at the top level, that confidence level backed by performances (that we've seen him be consistent with) isn't something we see often in the NZ side.

The assets he has, at seeing the ball early and playing the ball late will always leave him in great stead - yes, would I like to see him resist swinging across the line or lofting through the offside while in the first class format? Absolutely. But I also realise that he likely sees the NZ first class scene as hit and giggle cricket. Kind of similar to another pretty decent attacking batsman/all rounder in Keith Miller.

And thanks... long stint overseas meant regular posting wasn't plausible.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
Of course he belongs at the top level, he's head and shoulders ahead of our talent. But you honestly believe he wants it? Doesn't his back story suggest that isn't the case? Doesn't signing up for a Renegades stint right throughout January suggest he could honestly take or leave the World Cup?

I have no doubt Jesse could average similarly to our non-established players. But if they are a young player who actually exhibits dedication and could become a long-term option for us, I'm looking at them over someone who could definitely take it over leave it - and hasn't given us much in the last 3 years in any case.

He could put out a press release today, saying 'yes, I want to play for New Zealand and I will do the necessary things to achieve this' and we'd get on with cricket, not this side show. But it's more likely he'll flag the NZ A trip and keep everyone guessing.
 

Blocky

Banned
Of course he belongs at the top level, he's head and shoulders ahead of our talent. But you honestly believe he wants it? Doesn't his back story suggest that isn't the case? Doesn't signing up for a Renegades stint right throughout January suggest he could honestly take or leave the World Cup?

I have no doubt Jesse could average similarly to our non-established players. But if they are a young player who actually exhibits dedication and could become a long-term option for us, I'm looking at them over someone who could definitely take it over leave it - and hasn't given us much in the last 3 years in any case.

He could put out a press release today, saying 'yes, I want to play for New Zealand and I will do the necessary things to achieve this' and we'd get on with cricket, not this side show. But it's more likely he'll flag the NZ A trip and keep everyone guessing.
I guess the fact that I've dealt with people who have severe abandonment issues and excessive/destructive personalities means I'm a little more open and understanding of why Jesse has the issues he has. I've worked with a lot of at-risk youth in both volunteer and recently consultative roles and know first hand that imposing restrictions, implying threats and indications of it being their last chance will never get the results that you want out of people who have had **** upbringings like he has.

Jesse will never come out and say "I love playing for my country, I want to be in the NZ side for the next five years" because of fear, more than anything else. That's what I truly believe. You won't see him do the big Kevin Pietersen like gesture because ultimately he has a massive fear of abandonment and expects that the worst will happen. He also would be risking the whole "I'm too cool for that ****" ethos that he's built with his friends.

That's why managing him and letting him manage himself comes down to patience, respect and not imposing stupid restrictions. That doesn't mean you let him run around at night every night getting ****-faced and being hammered while playing, but it does mean that if you want to eradicate that behaviour, you have to accept why that behaviour occurs in the first place.

But in terms of his actual attitude? His move to Otago was all about getting away from bad influences and rebuilding. His time in Essex was all about keeping some consistent cricket going and not having a massive layoff/downtime like he has had in recent seasons. I think the moment you slap an NZ badge on his chest and say "We want you to set up test matches with your batting" is the moment he'll start to show he can.

Looking at our "next batch" - I don't see any Kane Williamson, Ross Taylor or Jesse Ryder in that flock. That's why we need to work hard and protect the ones we have.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Wagner continuing on his miserable County form into Plunket cricket. At what point does this become a worry?
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
A potentially thrilling finish in the offing at Hagley Park, but I suspect a single wicket would end the match as a draw, but at least Murdoch and Franklin are giving it a go. RRR 8.53 off 12.4 overs.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Agree with much of what Blocky is saying on Ryder though like most others here I don't ultimately believe Ryder has much/any future playing for NZ.

Jesse will never come out and say "I love playing for my country, I want to be in the NZ side for the next five years" because of fear, more than anything else. That's what I truly believe. You won't see him do the big Kevin Pietersen like gesture because ultimately he has a massive fear of abandonment and expects that the worst will happen. He also would be risking the whole "I'm too cool for that ****" ethos that he's built with his friends.
Agree with the obvious diagnosis that like a lot of people with a lot of superficial confidence and bluster, Ryder is insecure and fearful underneath. But I think there's another angle to that. He's scored runs at international level but he's never really scored runs against the people I (and he) would think of as The Big Boys. At some point in his early stint in international cricket I think the realisation snuck in that, unlike ever before, there were bigger fish in the sea than him. Bowlers that he couldn't just deal to, particularly those that were genuinely quick and intimidating, and that he couldn't see any way of dealing with in the future either. Fear of failure and humiliation snuck in. Other batsmen doubtless face the same feelings but may have more mental/emotional reserves to call upon in order to face that challenge, however for Ryder I think once that thought was in his head then he went with the well established (in NZ) fallback option that you've pointed out -"too cool, not gonna try". I expect that if he was facing Steyn and Philander or Johnson tomorrow we'd just get wild swings and slashes every ball because he doesn't genuinely believe he can play them.

That's why managing him and letting him manage himself comes down to patience, respect and not imposing stupid restrictions. That doesn't mean you let him run around at night every night getting ****-faced and being hammered while playing, but it does mean that if you want to eradicate that behaviour, you have to accept why that behaviour occurs in the first place.
Tend to agree with this too though what it runs up against is the culture most teams and their coaches/captains try to build. That culture of team-first, individual second repeated again and again and drummed into everyone. Anyone that steps out of line and shows non-team-first behaviour and does not comply is strictly put in their place. There are other examples of that - I see Jeets backing away against Steyn in South Africa as an example - it would have been seen as an affront to the team-first culture and his dropping was more a punishment for that violation than for any direct cricket reasons. The fact that there was nothing to gain whatsoever by him standing there and wearing a ball from Steyn was besides the point… in fact it only increased his opportunity to demonstrate his team-first approach. A few arbitrary rules and rituals always seem to sneak in to that culture too and perhaps these do strengthen the team bond as well. Most of this culture is seen as positive and it does involve a lot of internal reinforcement; a lot of players like it.

But then someone like Ryder comes along and needs exceptions made for him, because he will most definitely exhibit some non-team-first behaviour. People will say his behaviour is not acceptable and it will be seen as undermining the team culture and also the authority of the captain/coach. Authoritarian elements within the environment will try to pull him into line. Unless they’re smart/careful the captain and coach will likely back themselves into a corner by escalating things; warning the offending player, last warning, ultimatums as Blocky talked about. They end up in a situation where they either kick the offending player out or completely lose face themselves.

There are ways to do things better than the above but they do require a compromise on that culture, and in Ryder's case much of this is already established history anyway.

But in terms of his actual attitude? His move to Otago was all about getting away from bad influences and rebuilding. His time in Essex was all about keeping some consistent cricket going and not having a massive layoff/downtime like he has had in recent seasons. I think the moment you slap an NZ badge on his chest and say "We want you to set up test matches with your batting" is the moment he'll start to show he can.
Playing for Essex is fundamentally different to playing for NZ and for the people he has a long and difficult history with. He has an established relationship with NZC, coach, captain, some players etc that is to a greater or lesser extent antagonistic. Particularly as Ryder will see some of them as just more of those types that have tried to cast their authority over him, who’ve abandoned him and disrespected him. Does he really want to succeed at cricket with and for those people? In all likelihood I think not.
 
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Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Good to see Wheeler getting off to a strong start. Bit of a shame that he's probably going to be relying on a Boult injury for an international call-up.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
A potentially thrilling finish in the offing at Hagley Park, but I suspect a single wicket would end the match as a draw, but at least Murdoch and Franklin are giving it a go. RRR 8.53 off 12.4 overs.
I'd like to like my post. Great work Wellington, but also fair play to Canterbury for going for the win - given they'd missed out on first innings points. Hopefully this is a sign of things to come from Murdoch!
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
I'd like to like my post. Great work Wellington, but also fair play to Canterbury for going for the win - given they'd missed out on first innings points. Hopefully this is a sign of things to come from Murdoch!
You'll struggle to find me one of those two-session chases that have paid off for the bowling side in recent years though tbh. Phlegm's boys have learnt that the hard way.

Anyway, seems like another final day pitch and result in NZ that was hellbent on chasing Tim Johnston into an alternative career. so boo to that.

 

Blocky

Banned
Wagner continuing on his miserable County form into Plunket cricket. At what point does this become a worry?
Now. I think he's had almost too much cricket in the last eighteen months, his technique is falling apart, the video that I've managed to source shows him falling over again, very similar to the issues he had a couple of years ago and had to battle through.

Bond needs to get a hold of him, pull him out of a couple of matches and get him working on his triggers and technique to ensure he keeps his pace up and doesn't force the ball through.

In his current form and rhythm, he'll struggle to make an impact against Pakistan in the UAE.
 

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