Clarke in the Aussie batting pantheon

[Flametree]

Just considering middle-orders (3-6) and assuming you want one of your top order to bowl a bit (or a lot)...

1. Bradman, Chappell G, Ponting, Miller
2. Harvey, McCabe, Border, Waugh S
3. Hassett, Macartney, Clarke, Walters
4. Chappell I, O'Neill, Ryder, Hussey
5. Boon, Waugh M, Booth, Martyn

Langer might be worth a spot in there - always thought he was better in the middle order than opening. And I've treated Jack Gregory as a number 7...

 

[ohnoitsyou]

I don't doubt Border was great, but I do think some of that stuff is a bit overblown. Really, how much of the change that happened under Border was just a result of the natural changing of the guard in the team, and him playing across two separate eras, one that had been shattered by WSC and rebel tours etc, and one where new players came into the team who wanted to play test cricket for Aus, as opposed to anything Border actually did?

Clarke is, in my eyes, the best on field captain I've seen. Tactically very good, and everything he does works.

yeah, because when you MJ running in and bowling 150+ at the ribs, Harris bowling at ATG levels with Siddle and Lyon to bowl and bowl all day, everything and anything is going to work.

 

[Hurricane]

I don't remember Border being tactically astute - although they were always leading the way with funky fields - but he was a better leader than Clarke will ever be.

 

[Burgey]

Border's captaincy was fashioned on his initial years in the Australian team and the side he inherited. You can't underestimate the impact of the Tied Test on him either. He declared twice and nearly lost. After that he only declared at Customs for a lot of years.

God he was hard though. 153 tests on the bounce. You'd see him stare blokes down when his side was copping a pummelling. 11,000 plus test runs with three shots - a pull, cut and cover drive.

He was flint hard. Taught Steve Waugh how to be hard. Dean Jones talked about being in the sheds with AB after the last test in 86/87 when Australia had won. The boys were all happy and Border sat there stony faced before saying "We lost the Ashes. You're happy Deano, because you made a big ton; Merv because you took a few wickets. It means nothing. We lost".

We'd have been nothing without AB in the 80s. It was great he got to have a year or two with Warne in the side, captaining him with a bit of imagination at last. He said it was the most enjoyable time of his captaincy.

I'd turn for Allan Border. I worship the ground he walks on. Saddest day of my cricket watching life seeing him basically forced out after an away series. He deserved a rousing home finale. WAG he was.

 

[Hurricane]

^great post.

 

[Hurricane]

Yeah the resounding impression I got of Alan Border from the way he conducted himself was that he was a man of great integrity and high standards. We loved to hate Greg Matthews and Dean Jones across the ditch - but we were very respectful towards AB because he was modest and we liked that. He was also a very hard man and he reminded us of us of some of our All Black captains at least he did for me. He never dominated New Zealand because we had a very fine bowling attack those days, if it wasn't Hadlee coming at you, it was Danny Morrison or John Bracewell. Amongst all of that AB got his share of tons against us. I remember that cover drive Burgey mentions very well.
I think he really shone against the Windies basically because no one else in the world could handle them but he managed ok against them. And the word of the little Aussie Battler's efforts against them reached our fair shores.

My indelible memory of him is that of being an iron disciplinarian. One did not **** with AB. As one Tim Zoehrer learned. And the journalists at a press conference noted when Tim turned up with a black eye given to him for calling a NZ batsman back to the crease. That is hard cricket and that is test cricket. And that is the cricket AB wanted to play.

 

[NUFAN]

Just considering middle-orders (3-6) and assuming you want one of your top order to bowl a bit (or a lot)...

1. Bradman, Chappell G, Ponting, Miller
2. Harvey, McCabe, Border, Waugh S
3. Hassett, Macartney, Clarke, Walters
4. Chappell I, O'Neill, Ryder, Hussey
5. Boon, Waugh M, Booth, Martyn

Langer might be worth a spot in there - always thought he was better in the middle order than opening. And I've treated Jack Gregory as a number 7...

Good list - I think that's an accurate representation of where Clarke fits with him being the next in line to move up to the 2nd team.

 

[Red]

yeah, because when you MJ running in and bowling 150+ at the ribs, Harris bowling at ATG levels with Siddle and Lyon to bowl and bowl all day, everything and anything is going to work.

There's more to it than that. I enjoy Clarke's innovation. He tries things and they work. He doesn't get bogged down when things aren't travelling his way, he tries new stuff. Obviously great bowlers make great captains, etc, but Clarke is a clear thinker and innovator. And importantly, he doesn't try too much either.

Not denying Border's greatness as a leader of men in any way, agree with everything Burgey said completely. My point is more to do with Clarke's on field stuff. Really enjoy watching it.

 

[Furball]

As a Pom I rate them all higher than Clarke. They made me fear them which I don't get with Clarke. Clarke to me is a better version of Mark Waugh, a player great to watch but you always feel you have a chance with him.

Clarke's Ashes record is largely excellent. The reason that Clarke isn't rated as highly as the likes of Waugh and Ponting is partly because Clarke played in worse Australian teams.

In Ashes cricket, Clarke > Ponting IMO.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

There's more to it than that. I enjoy Clarke's innovation. He tries things and they work. He doesn't get bogged down when things aren't travelling his way, he tries new stuff. Obviously great bowlers make great captains, etc, but Clarke is a clear thinker and innovator. And importantly, he doesn't try too much either.

Not denying Border's greatness as a leader of men in any way, agree with everything Burgey said completely. My point is more to do with Clarke's on field stuff. Really enjoy watching it.

yeah but countless other captains have done that too, just that Clarke has more tools at his disposal than most.

 

[Furball]

yeah, because when you MJ running in and bowling 150+ at the ribs, Harris bowling at ATG levels with Siddle and Lyon to bowl and bowl all day, everything and anything is going to work.

They build pressure because Clarke's field positioning is spot on. Whether that's Clarke's instincts, behind the scenes planning or a bit of both, but it struck me in the 2013 Ashes that a lot of loose deliveries didn't get punished as they should because Clarke always had fielders in the right spots to stop runs and keep the pressure on.

Yeah he's got some great tools at his disposal but he builds pressure for them with his fields. And he's willing to be flexible and think on his feet - think throwing the ball to Shane Watson at Lord's in the 4th (?) over and him immediately getting one to shape into Cook to trap him lbw.

 

[Furball]

Just looking it up, Clarke's Ashes record is actually a lot worse than I thought it was.

Fair enough, his 2010/11 series has a lot to do with it but he only averaged 40 in the most recent series, which surprised me.

edit: also has a piss-poor record in the 5th Test.

 

[Red]

yeah but countless other captains have done that too, just that Clarke has more tools at his disposal than most.

Nah, the contrast between Clarke and say, Ponting, is pretty clear IMO.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Just looking it up, Clarke's Ashes record is actually a lot worse than I thought it was.

Fair enough, his 2010/11 series has a lot to do with it but he only averaged 40 in the most recent series, which surprised me.

Sure he averaged in the 40s but from memory he got the majority of his runs when the series was actually alive. Scored a hundred each in the first two games.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Border's captaincy was fashioned on his initial years in the Australian team and the side he inherited. You can't underestimate the impact of the Tied Test on him either. He declared twice and nearly lost. After that he only declared at Customs for a lot of years.

God he was hard though. 153 tests on the bounce. You'd see him stare blokes down when his side was copping a pummelling. 11,000 plus test runs with three shots - a pull, cut and cover drive.

He was flint hard. Taught Steve Waugh how to be hard. Dean Jones talked about being in the sheds with AB after the last test in 86/87 when Australia had won. The boys were all happy and Border sat there stony faced before saying "We lost the Ashes. You're happy Deano, because you made a big ton; Merv because you took a few wickets. It means nothing. We lost".

We'd have been nothing without AB in the 80s. It was great he got to have a year or two with Warne in the side, captaining him with a bit of imagination at last. He said it was the most enjoyable time of his captaincy.

I'd turn for Allan Border. I worship the ground he walks on. Saddest day of my cricket watching life seeing him basically forced out after an away series. He deserved a rousing home finale. WAG he was.

Great post. Would've loved to see Watto attempt one of his ***** tantrums with Border in charge

That said, Clarke's awesomeness as a captain is more his on-field tactics. He's clearly brilliant at that. In my time of watching cricket, I'd say only Taylor was as good.

 

[Spikey]

yeah, because when you MJ running in and bowling 150+ at the ribs, Harris bowling at ATG levels with Siddle and Lyon to bowl and bowl all day, everything and anything is going to work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r0AYDo4MVI

 

[adub]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r0AYDo4MVI

I loved this one live. Mitchell Johnson - YouTube Maybe not the most completely innovative bit of captaincy, but not completely straight forward either. Mostly happy for Lyno though

 

[Dan]

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...l-clarke-does-something-outrageous-works.html

We do have this thread for a reason..

 

[Spark]

Just looking it up, Clarke's Ashes record is actually a lot worse than I thought it was.

Fair enough, his 2010/11 series has a lot to do with it but he only averaged 40 in the most recent series, which surprised me.

edit: also has a piss-poor record in the 5th Test.

He tends to score mostly at the front end of the series. The series just gone was a fairly extreme example of that in so far as he did absolutely nothing from Perth onwards but overall his series contribution was still quite significant.