ODI Cricket - Mike Hussey or Michael Bevan?

[Riggins]

They cruised it.

 

[Red]

Opinion changed. 2008 is an epic chase.

 

[Valer]

People seem to have a huge misconception about Bevan setting totals. Averages 52 @ 80 SR (which in those days was quite high).

Can't pinpoint individual matches but I remember at times latter in his career it became a problem subjectively.

Stats-wise it clear he was more chasing focused than other batsman too.

Bevan 1st 51.66@79.69
2nd 56.50 @67.60
Batting 1st advantage -4.84@ +12.09

Hussey 1st 49.94@92.16
2nd 42.75@73.12
Batting 1st advantage 7.19@19.04

Other strong lower order batsman have similar profiles

MSD 1st 54.08@95.08
2nd 52.30@82.81
Batting 1st advantage1.78@12.27

Surprisingly
A. Symonds
1st 39.01@92.59
2nd 41.56@92.09
1st adv -2.55 @0.5

???

 

[Riggins]

there's definitely a niche for someone smart to make a new stat about 2nd innings of ODI's, which takes SR compared to SR required into account. Could be a way more indicative stat than you could probably make for test players.

 

[Ikki]

Bevan definitely cared about seeing it all the way through when he was in the 2nd innings, but for me that's why he was so good. I'm yet to see a player, maybe any player, be able to withstand so much pressure and at the same time not be overawed into doing something stupid. He would bat as slow as he had to for as long as he had to, to make it that much more certain that he didn't need to take an unnecessary risk and give the game away. That's why his 2nd innings SR shouldn't be used as a comparison with his 1st innings SR. He batted as fast as he needed to, not as fast as he could.

This topic has been discussed and IIRC there was really only 1 (or 2?) instances where his slow playing might have cost his side. But 52 @ 80 is a ridiculous record, you can't call it a weakness.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Bevan definitely cared about seeing it all the way through when he was in the 2nd innings, but for me that's why he was so good. I'm yet to see a player, maybe any player, be able to withstand so much pressure and at the same time not be overawed into doing something stupid. He would bat as slow as he had to for as long as he had to, to make it that much more certain that he didn't need to take an unnecessary risk and give the game away. That's why his 2nd innings SR shouldn't be used as a comparison with his 1st innings SR. He batted as fast as he needed to, not as fast as he could.

This topic has been discussed and IIRC there was really only 1 (or 2?) instances where his slow playing might have cost his side. But 52 @ 80 is a ridiculous record, you can't call it a weakness.

Dhoni might have eclipsed him at this imo

 

[Valer]

Compared to the standards he sets while chasing it IS a relative weakness, that's my point.

To expand, either Hussey is clearly worse OR he is better in the first innings.

 

[Ikki]

Dhoni might have eclipsed him at this imo

No, Dhoni's approach is much different. Dhoni's actually a very fast chaser. And I don't put Dhoni near Bevan as a finisher. The quality of the attacks he faced and succeeded against in WCs alone are incredible.

Compared to the standards he sets while chasing it IS a relative weakness, that's my point.

To expand, either Hussey is clearly worse OR he is better in the first innings.

If that's your point it's not a good one. It's like giving him 10/10 for chasing and 9/10 for setting.

 

[Ikki]

An old post of mine where I looked at notable Bevan chases in WCs:

2nd SF: Australia v West Indies at Mohali, Mar 14, 1996 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against Windies; Aus collapse to 4-15; Bevan comes in and helps add about another 160 and helps Aus win the match. Reminds me of his last ball 4 victory against WIndies in another match - that was incredible too.

16th Match: Australia v Pakistan at Leeds, May 23, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against Pakistan; Aus fall to 4-101, chasing 276; Bevan helps Aus fightback to 214 without a loss; however not enough as Aus lost by 10 runs.

2nd SF: Australia v South Africa at Birmingham, Jun 17, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against S.Africa; Aus fall to 4-68. Bevan and Waugh carry the fightback to 158, however Waugh goes. Bevan is left with the tail and takes Aus to a respectable 213. With some magic from Warne and a last ball blunder by Donald; Aus make the final in a thrilling match.

37th Match: Australia v England at Port Elizabeth, Mar 2, 2003 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against England; Aus collapses to 4-48, chasing 204. Bevan comes in and steadies the ship to 111. The next 4 wickets go in a hurry for only 24 runs. Another crisis but Bevan with help from Bichel take 135 to 208, winning the match with 2 balls to spare. An unforgettable match (as all these matches are really).

5th Super: Australia v New Zealand at Port Elizabeth, Mar 11, 2003 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against NZ; Aus collapse to a pumped up NZ to an embarressing score of 7/84. Bevan and Bichel once again put on a big partnership taking the score to 208. The Aus bowlers make the NZ bowlers look human and bowl NZ out 112, giving Aus the win.

And just LOOK at those attacks: Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop; Wasim, Akhtar, Saqlain; Donald, Pollock, Kallis and Klusener...

 

[OverratedSanity]

No, Dhoni's approach is much different. Dhoni's actually a very fast chaser. And I don't put Dhoni near Bevan as a finisher. The quality of the attacks he faced and succeeded against in WCs alone are incredible.

Nah, that's absolutely not true. Most of the time, Dhoni paces himself perfectly and doesnt look for the big shots unless they are absolutely necessary. On numerous occasions, when it's necessary he's played as slowly as possible without the RR getting too high or taking any real risks. Takes it down to something like 30 in 16 balls needed and then goes for it.

Take this match for example:

Final: India v Sri Lanka at Port of Spain, Jul 11, 2013 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Batted really slowly because he needed to guard the tail and the pitch was a real dog. Batted slowly but safely by making 29 (48). Took it down to the last over, backed himself to get 15 off 6 and promptly delivered. There are so many other slow Dhoni chasing innings to list, really, that was just one.

I get that Bevan played better attacks but saying that Dhoni isn't near Bevan as a chaser is just blatantly laughable bias.

 

[Ikki]

Nah, that's absolutely not true. Most of the time, Dhoni paces himself perfectly and doesnt look for the big shots unless they are absolutely necessary. On numerous occasions, when it's necessary he's played as slowly as possible without the RR getting too high or taking any real risks. Takes it down to something like 30 in 16 balls needed and then goes for it.

Take this match for example:

Final: India v Sri Lanka at Port of Spain, Jul 11, 2013 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Batted really slowly because he needed to guard the tail and the pitch was a real dog. Batted slowly but safely by making 29 (48). Took it down to the last over, backed himself to get 15 off 6 and promptly delivered. There are so many other slow Dhoni chasing innings to list, really, that was just one.

I get that Bevan played better attacks but saying that Dhoni isn't near Bevan as a chaser is just blatantly laughable bias.

Yeah, that's not like a Bevan innings really. Not saying there weren't occasions where he needed to hit out but Bevan didn't refrain from striking to set himself; he didn't go for the big shots so as not to risk himself.

In the above match India won with 2 balls remaining and 1 wicket in hand; and in the last over Dhoni goes for 16 runs, with 2 6s and a 4. A Bevan-like innings would have broken that into as many singles as possible with the occasional 4 so he wouldn't have to score 16 runs off one over. In his whole ODI career, Bevan only has 21 6s, Dhoni has 175 of them in only 18 more innings.

Sorry if it comes across as laughably biased to you, but could you show me 1 innings where Dhoni has a knock like the ones I just listed? AFAIC WC is where you set yourself apart, not glorified exhibition matches.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Oh that silly old only WC matters argument? Ok, then carry on, I don't want to contribute anything more here

 

[Ikki]

Oh that silly old only WC matters argument? Ok, then carry on, I don't want to contribute anything more here

I edited my post. It's incorrect to state that only WC matters. Other matches definitely do. But the WC is where the best set themselves apart. Bevan has numerous high pressure finishes in WCs against great attacks. Dhoni doesn't. It's the same reason I don't rate Hussey as highly - and I think overall he probably had more in his locker than Bevan. But if you don't produce, you're not getting the same credit.

In some of those matches; if Bevan doesn't produce Australia goes home and has to come back 4 years later. That's a whole different world of pressure compared to the possibility of losing any other ODI match. So don't tell me they're the same. Across 2 WCs, Dhoni only has 1 inning of note.

 

[cnerd123]

I edited my post. It's incorrect to state that only WC matters. Other matches definitely do. But the WC is where the best set themselves apart. Bevan has numerous high pressure finishes in WCs against great attacks. Dhoni doesn't. It's the same reason I don't rate Hussey as highly - and I think overall he probably had more in his locker than Bevan. But if you don't produce, you're not getting the same credit.

In many of those matches; if Bevan doesn't produce Australia goes home and has to come back 4 years later. That's a whole different world of pressure compared to the possibility of losing any other ODI match. So don't tell me they're the same. Across 2 WCs, Dhoni only has 1 inning of note.

I'd argue MSD's one inning of note > all of Bevan's cause it was WC Final...

MSD's a different type of chaser though, agreed. He builds a platform and then launches off it. Bevan seems like more of a steady, cool accumulator.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah, that's not like a Bevan innings really. Not saying there weren't occasions where he needed to hit out but Bevan didn't refrain from striking to set himself; he didn't go for the big shots so as not to risk himself.

Never said it was a Bevan like innings.

This was your original statement : I'm yet to see a player, maybe any player, be able to withstand so much pressure and at the same time not be overawed into doing something stupid
I cited that knock and could cite many more to show Dhoni is equally good at that if not better.

 

[Ikki]

I'd argue MSD's one inning of note > all of Bevan's cause it was WC Final...

MSD's a different type of chaser though, agreed. He builds a platform and then launches off it. Bevan seems like more of a steady, cool accumulator.

Definitely not. Maybe more important than any single Bevan innings in terms of it being the final, but it wasn't really a pressure cooker...India won it comfortably with 10 balls to spare and 6 wickets in hand. He did basically nothing until the final and even then it was Gambhir that really took the game back.

Definitely agree on the 2nd bit. They're really different at chasing. Maybe people who didn't watch cricket during Bevan's day don't really appreciate just how excruciating Bevan made chases. But it was his way of putting it all on his own shoulders and minimising the risk as much as possible.

Never said it was a Bevan like innings.

This was your original statement : I'm yet to see a player, maybe any player, be able to withstand so much pressure and at the same time not be overawed into doing something stupid
I cited that knock and could cite many more to show Dhoni is equally good at that if not better.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by that statement. Bevan would rarely stray from the minimum needed to win a match. In that way, he had to get bat to ball a lot and take lots of singles. By breaking up the runs we needed to score in that way, he would be playing the odds as the faster you chase, the more inherent risk there is. However, in doing so, it means that a lot of those chases came to final balls or got really late into a match than it might have otherwise if Bevan had gone for it. And in that instance, it just piled the pressure on him as by doing that you've also got a smaller margin for error. It ratchets up the pressure a few notches above an already tense situation.

That's what I mean when I say, I'm not sure I've seen a player withstand so much pressure. He was always dancing on such a fine line by doing that.

 

[zaremba]

Urghh. I hated watching him bat.

Fine, he was pretty effective.

But look, nearly 30% of his innings were NOs. In contrast to say, Ponting, who had about 10%.

I know, different roles etc. And I know, Bevan was there at the end and "finished" the game and all that stuff. But I think his average is overblown bc of his NOs, and his "finisher" role is a bit overstated. I just don't think he's the best ODI batsman or whatever. And if I had the choice between him and Hussey batting at 6 or 7, I'd take Hussey without a 2nd thought.

And, I hated watching him bat.

For the thousandth time, Not Outs do not inflate a batsman's average. (Quite the reverse: it's harder to get 30* and 30 than a single score of 60, because when you get 60 you only have to play yourself in once.) Oh and I fail to see why the fact that a batsman ends an innings undefeated is somehow held against them in assessing how good they are.

 

[Furball]

For the thousandth time, Not Outs do not inflate a batsman's average. (Quite the reverse: it's harder to get 30* and 30 than a single score of 60, because when you get 60 you only have to play yourself in once.) Oh and I fail to see why the fact that a batsman ends an innings undefeated is somehow held against them in assessing how good they are.

Yep. Particularly when we're judging a guy on his ability in 2nd innings run chases where seeing it out to the end and not being dismissed is your job as a specialist finisher.r.

 

[ankitj]

I get that Bevan played better attacks but saying that Dhoni isn't near Bevan as a chaser is just blatantly laughable bias.

It's Ikki. What else do you expect.

 

[NUFAN]

That first innings that Ikki mentioned about Bevan doesn't really deserve to be on the list. Sure, we needed someone to build the innings, but out for 69 with a strike rate of 62 wasn't amazing and only looks good in hindsight after an all-time great collapse.