Page 1 of 16 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 230
Like Tree39Likes

Thread: Would Jacques Kallis and Imran Khan get more respect if they weren't all-rounders?

  1. #1
    U19 12th Man kiwiviktor81's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    261

    Would Jacques Kallis and Imran Khan get more respect if they weren't all-rounders?

    Just looking at some stats.

    Kallis averages 55 with the bat, Imran 22 with the ball (better than both Wasim and Waqar). Yet neither player features all that often in World XIs. Can't figure this out, other than to think that if they weren't allrounders they would have been judged on their primary skill alone and would so have been regarded much higher.

    Imran averages a run more per wicket than Glenn McGrath with the ball yet would offer 60 runs a match more with the bat. Yet McGrath is in more ATG teams. And Kallis averages more than Tendulkar with the bat despite being vastly superior as a 5th option. Yet Tendulkar is in more ATG teams. WTF.

  2. #2
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A Blood Rainbow
    Posts
    32,486
    This is only a problem if you think cricket is a mathematical exercise played on paper.
    kyear2 likes this.
    + time's fickle card game ~ with you and i +


    get ready for a broken ****in' arm

  3. #3
    U19 12th Man kiwiviktor81's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    261
    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    This is only a problem if you think cricket is a mathematical exercise played on paper.
    Nah, I reckon I'm into something here
    CricAddict likes this.

  4. #4
    International Debutant ohnoitsyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hamilton, city of well....
    Posts
    2,349
    Simply put, most teams only have the need for 5 bowlers. Kallis's bowling just isn't a factor, because either he is taking overs away from the premium bowlers, or taking overs of a bowler of similar quality. Similarly with Imran, runs in the tail don't often win you games; runs in the tail are a whole lot less influential on the game middle/top order bats. Which is why the likes of Kallis are often over looked for batsmen who are more likely to win games even if they can't bowl.
    kyear2 likes this.


  5. #5
    U19 12th Man kiwiviktor81's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    261
    Quote Originally Posted by ohnoitsyou View Post
    Simply put, most teams only have the need for 5 bowlers. Kallis's bowling just isn't a factor, because either he is taking overs away from the premium bowlers, or taking overs of a bowler of similar quality. Similarly with Imran, runs in the tail don't often win you games; runs in the tail are a whole lot less influential on the game middle/top order bats. Which is why the likes of Kallis are often over looked for batsmen who are more likely to win games even if they can't bowl.
    Great points, esp. regarding Kallis. Guess that also suggests that McGrath was better than his average as he took so many top order wickets (likewise, Imran took fewer of these than Wasim/Waqar).

    Also makes it clear why Hadlee is always rated higher than Imran, despite a similar average with the ball (as hardly anyone else took a lot of top order wickets while he was in the BCs).

    I wrote this post because I learned that Imran averaged 22 with the ball, to hear people talk about him I had figured 26-28.

    Cricket is wonderfully complicated. An ODI cricket simulator I once wrote suggest that, based on stats, Kapil Dev was the greatest player in history and a team of 11 Devs would have smoked everyone (that SR being a factor).

  6. #6
    School Boy/Girl Captain
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    171
    from my observation imran features quite often in all time XI's, kallis isn't there often but that's probably more due to his style of play as he wasn't as aggressive as a few other all time great batsmen plus if someone wants a batting all rounder they tend to pick sobers.

  7. #7
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    6,658
    Imran is tragically underrated with the ball. He was perhaps the best fast bowler the world has ever seen between 1980-1988. Better even than Marshall.

    He's my second pick on any ATG team after Bradman.
    smalishah84 likes this.

  8. #8
    U19 12th Man kiwiviktor81's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    261
    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    Imran is tragically underrated with the ball. He was perhaps the best fast bowler the world has ever seen between 1980-1988. Better even than Marshall.

    He's my second pick on any ATG team after Bradman.
    Imran Khan's last 65 Tests: 265 wickets @ 19.55. Inspired this post.

  9. #9
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    21,720
    just check his stats from 1980-88.....just phenomenal...averaged something like less than 18 for less about 250 wickets.....

    but Imran was a great bowler just that his captaincy over shadows a lot of his other achievements. He led Pakistan for 10 years and did very well. Won a fair few test series as captain and drew 3 series' with the mighty west indies.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  10. #10
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    England
    Posts
    57,726
    I've often said that Imran's so-called batting ability (and hence his perceived status as an all-rounder) seems to detract from his rating as a bowler.

    Kallis on the other hand is a true FTB and it is a farce that so many people rate him anywhere near Sobers, let alone people who think him a better all rounder.
    Last edited by marc71178; 19-05-2014 at 10:08 AM.
    marc71178 - President and founding member of AAAS - we don't only appreciate when he does well, but also when he's not quite so good!

    Anyone want to join the Society?

    Beware the evils of Kit-Kats - they're immoral apparently.

  11. #11
    State Vice-Captain akilana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Quebec
    Posts
    1,057
    FTB lol
    ankitj likes this.

  12. #12
    State Vice-Captain akilana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Quebec
    Posts
    1,057
    Quote Originally Posted by Gowza View Post
    from my observation imran features quite often in all time XI's, kallis isn't there often but that's probably more due to his style of play as he wasn't as aggressive as a few other all time great batsmen plus if someone wants a batting all rounder they tend to pick sobers.
    Sobers is a FTB and a rubbish bowler

  13. #13
    Global Moderator Teja.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    z
    Posts
    6,353
    Marc,

    I'm confused. If not an all-rounder, do you consider Imran a bowler who could bat a bit?
    Isnít it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? Ė Douglas Adams



    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    The reason people don't cheer for India is nothing to do with them being number one

    It's because Teja is a ****, FTR

  14. #14
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    w.i
    Posts
    4,071
    Quote Originally Posted by ohnoitsyou View Post
    Simply put, most teams only have the need for 5 bowlers. Kallis's bowling just isn't a factor, because either he is taking overs away from the premium bowlers, or taking overs of a bowler of similar quality. Similarly with Imran, runs in the tail don't often win you games; runs in the tail are a whole lot less influential on the game middle/top order bats. Which is why the likes of Kallis are often over looked for batsmen who are more likely to win games even if they can't bowl.
    This.

    Kallis was simply not as good a batsman as the others mentioned above him for the batting slots. As far as the all rounder slot goes, it's not a mystery that Sobers is a unanimous choice for that spot. For his own era Kallis is behind Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting and to many by a clear margin. Sobers is arguably the second greatest batsman ever.
    Again I agree with your point regarding bowling all rounders, I generally choose one but after that I choose based purely on their ability as bowlers (unless they are equal and then other skills factor in). As you pointed out bowling all rounders hardly win games for their teams with the bat and are much more important in weaker teams where they are trying to save games. Marshall and Warne were good enough no. 8 ' s for the best two teams of all time.
    Regarding Imran, many rate Akram as vetted, and it has less to do with Imran's Batting but more to do with his rad numbers which, while great wouldn't put him in the conversation for the greatest bowler of all time. His numbers were mainly boosted by his incredible home numbers but o e only plays at home half of the time and the road numbers should be just as impressive.
    I personally choose him because he is probably the better old ball bowler compared to Hadlee and probably along with Akram and Garner among the very best. Also belive that a bowler from the S.C. should be in the team to be comfortable in those conditions.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Waite+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  15. #15
    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    9,804
    You can find 3 better bowlers than Imran for an All Time Test XI.

    However, the same can be said for Wasim but he still gets picked most of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    Yeah, look, it gives me a pain deep inside my uterus to admit it, but it's Ajmal until such time as we get a working throwing law again.
    Never in a million years would I have thought Brumby to admit this!!!!!!

Page 1 of 16 12311 ... LastLast


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 40
    Last Post: 30-06-2011, 05:36 AM
  2. Jacques Kallis - Still Underrated?
    By Maximus0723 in forum Cricket Chat
    Replies: 64
    Last Post: 04-04-2010, 08:34 PM
  3. Why is Jacques Kallis so disliked?
    By Langeveldt in forum Cricket Chat
    Replies: 123
    Last Post: 31-01-2007, 04:46 PM
  4. Jacques Kallis v Rahul Dravid
    By Craig in forum Cricket Chat
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 19-12-2006, 08:15 AM
  5. Jacques Kallis - Most Underrated Allrounder
    By Sanz in forum Cricket Chat
    Replies: 91
    Last Post: 29-09-2006, 06:18 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •