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Would Jacques Kallis and Imran Khan get more respect if they weren't all-rounders?

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
Just looking at some stats.

Kallis averages 55 with the bat, Imran 22 with the ball (better than both Wasim and Waqar). Yet neither player features all that often in World XIs. Can't figure this out, other than to think that if they weren't allrounders they would have been judged on their primary skill alone and would so have been regarded much higher.

Imran averages a run more per wicket than Glenn McGrath with the ball yet would offer 60 runs a match more with the bat. Yet McGrath is in more ATG teams. And Kallis averages more than Tendulkar with the bat despite being vastly superior as a 5th option. Yet Tendulkar is in more ATG teams. WTF.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
This is only a problem if you think cricket is a mathematical exercise played on paper.
 

ohnoitsyou

International Regular
Simply put, most teams only have the need for 5 bowlers. Kallis's bowling just isn't a factor, because either he is taking overs away from the premium bowlers, or taking overs of a bowler of similar quality. Similarly with Imran, runs in the tail don't often win you games; runs in the tail are a whole lot less influential on the game middle/top order bats. Which is why the likes of Kallis are often over looked for batsmen who are more likely to win games even if they can't bowl.
 

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
Simply put, most teams only have the need for 5 bowlers. Kallis's bowling just isn't a factor, because either he is taking overs away from the premium bowlers, or taking overs of a bowler of similar quality. Similarly with Imran, runs in the tail don't often win you games; runs in the tail are a whole lot less influential on the game middle/top order bats. Which is why the likes of Kallis are often over looked for batsmen who are more likely to win games even if they can't bowl.
Great points, esp. regarding Kallis. Guess that also suggests that McGrath was better than his average as he took so many top order wickets (likewise, Imran took fewer of these than Wasim/Waqar).

Also makes it clear why Hadlee is always rated higher than Imran, despite a similar average with the ball (as hardly anyone else took a lot of top order wickets while he was in the BCs).

I wrote this post because I learned that Imran averaged 22 with the ball, to hear people talk about him I had figured 26-28.

Cricket is wonderfully complicated. An ODI cricket simulator I once wrote suggest that, based on stats, Kapil Dev was the greatest player in history and a team of 11 Devs would have smoked everyone (that SR being a factor).
 

Gowza

U19 12th Man
from my observation imran features quite often in all time XI's, kallis isn't there often but that's probably more due to his style of play as he wasn't as aggressive as a few other all time great batsmen plus if someone wants a batting all rounder they tend to pick sobers.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Imran is tragically underrated with the ball. He was perhaps the best fast bowler the world has ever seen between 1980-1988. Better even than Marshall.

He's my second pick on any ATG team after Bradman.
 

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
Imran is tragically underrated with the ball. He was perhaps the best fast bowler the world has ever seen between 1980-1988. Better even than Marshall.

He's my second pick on any ATG team after Bradman.
Imran Khan's last 65 Tests: 265 wickets @ 19.55. Inspired this post.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
just check his stats from 1980-88.....just phenomenal...averaged something like less than 18 for less about 250 wickets.....

but Imran was a great bowler just that his captaincy over shadows a lot of his other achievements. He led Pakistan for 10 years and did very well. Won a fair few test series as captain and drew 3 series' with the mighty west indies.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
I've often said that Imran's so-called batting ability (and hence his perceived status as an all-rounder) seems to detract from his rating as a bowler.

Kallis on the other hand is a true FTB and it is a farce that so many people rate him anywhere near Sobers, let alone people who think him a better all rounder.
 
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akilana

International 12th Man
from my observation imran features quite often in all time XI's, kallis isn't there often but that's probably more due to his style of play as he wasn't as aggressive as a few other all time great batsmen plus if someone wants a batting all rounder they tend to pick sobers.
Sobers is a FTB and a rubbish bowler :D
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
Marc,

I'm confused. If not an all-rounder, do you consider Imran a bowler who could bat a bit?
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Simply put, most teams only have the need for 5 bowlers. Kallis's bowling just isn't a factor, because either he is taking overs away from the premium bowlers, or taking overs of a bowler of similar quality. Similarly with Imran, runs in the tail don't often win you games; runs in the tail are a whole lot less influential on the game middle/top order bats. Which is why the likes of Kallis are often over looked for batsmen who are more likely to win games even if they can't bowl.
This.

Kallis was simply not as good a batsman as the others mentioned above him for the batting slots. As far as the all rounder slot goes, it's not a mystery that Sobers is a unanimous choice for that spot. For his own era Kallis is behind Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting and to many by a clear margin. Sobers is arguably the second greatest batsman ever.
Again I agree with your point regarding bowling all rounders, I generally choose one but after that I choose based purely on their ability as bowlers (unless they are equal and then other skills factor in). As you pointed out bowling all rounders hardly win games for their teams with the bat and are much more important in weaker teams where they are trying to save games. Marshall and Warne were good enough no. 8 ' s for the best two teams of all time.
Regarding Imran, many rate Akram as vetted, and it has less to do with Imran's Batting but more to do with his rad numbers which, while great wouldn't put him in the conversation for the greatest bowler of all time. His numbers were mainly boosted by his incredible home numbers but o e only plays at home half of the time and the road numbers should be just as impressive.
I personally choose him because he is probably the better old ball bowler compared to Hadlee and probably along with Akram and Garner among the very best. Also belive that a bowler from the S.C. should be in the team to be comfortable in those conditions.
 

Agent Nationaux

International Coach
You can find 3 better bowlers than Imran for an All Time Test XI.

However, the same can be said for Wasim but he still gets picked most of the time.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Marc,

I'm confused. If not an all-rounder, do you consider Imran a bowler who could bat a bit?
Yes, better then most obviously but he never put in the all round performances over the course of individual games or series to be deemed a proper all rounder in my opinion.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Wasim Akram is an interesting case. Part of it is supposedly his magic deliveries, I believe a bigger part is his odi performances as when picking these teams may just select their best cricket XI, which explains some picks for the good Doctor as well, based on his FC performances.
 

viriya

International Captain
Yes, better then most obviously but he never put in the all round performances over the course of individual games or series to be deemed a proper all rounder in my opinion.
While Imran did become more of a batsmen later in his career and didn't bowl as much (early in his career it was the opposite), what you're claiming is just plainly not true. He had a 2 year period (1982-83) where he dominated with both bat and ball - arguably the most complete period of dominance by a player with both bat and ball in the history of Test cricket:

Batting Average: 65.18
Bowling Average: 14.03
over 14 Tests!

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
 
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Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Over 88 tests Imran took 362 wickets at over four per test match at an average of 22. He averaged nearly 38 with the bat over 88 tests.

Regardless of when he did or didn't do it all together, the guy is a phenomenal cricketer, and the fact that he sustained these numbers when he sometimes played primarily as a batsman or a bowler is even more remarkable. And, as someone said, for a period of time he was possibly the greatest fast bowler ever.

Kallis is unreal too. Batting average of 55 (higher than Tendulkar). Averaged nearly 50 against Australia in Australia in the Warne/McGrath/Gillespie era. Average of 58 in India. Added to that he took over one wicket per innings. His fast bowling is vastly underrated. If he was an Indian, he would be their second greatest quick of all time. I get the feeling if Kallis had've just been a bowler, he probably would've taken 6-700 test wickets. In addition to all this, he is one of the greatest slip fielders of all time.

Both men are unbelievable, and should never be underrated/disrespected by anyone.
 

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