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Would Jacques Kallis and Imran Khan get more respect if they weren't all-rounders?

slowfinger

International Debutant
The problem is that All Rounders are not needed in ATG teams, as there are enough specialist players to be able for someone not to rely on the all rounder to contribute with the ball or bat. So taking this away, we must judge Kallis and Imran on their batting/bowling alone.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Pretty much noone does this and when they do it's an anomaly. Allroundedness isn't going to with a team matches. Scoring runs or taking wickets is.
The best of the best do it, and this is the class we're supposedly judging Imran by.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
It's not true though. Kallis has bowled in the first hour on occasions but never consistently. Most of the times he was asked to bowl was when there were set batsmen or on flat pitches because the team wasn't able to get wickets. Why would they bowl Kallis when Donald or Steyn or Pollock would take advantage of the new bowl more than Kallis would. The team also won't like to bowl him to the ground on flattest of pitches as he's their main batsman. He got a lot of good batsman out and if you see his wicket column it's full of good players.
No way. You make it sound like South Africa would only call on Kallis when the going was tough and they really needed a wicket. He bowled so very often to batsman not set. And yes, of course I'm aware Kallis didn't open the bowling, but the opening bowlers would finish their first spell and Kallis would often come on to bowl within the first 15 overs, which is the amount of overs the team should bowl within the first hour.

Kallis was a decent bowler, but its impossible to suggest seriously that he is a 26-27 average career bowler.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
who does it?
Certainly Sobers and Botham did it on multiple times. Even Kallis did it twice. I looked at a long list of the all time great all rounders and if I remember correctly Imran had the worst ratio of about 20 or so.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Looking for an article I read on All Rounders that stated best all round performances in a series. Believe Sobers, Miller and Botham stood out with Kallis not far behind. Will try to find it.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Certainly Sobers and Botham did it on multiple times. Even Kallis did it twice. I looked at a long list of the all time great all rounders and if I remember correctly Imran had the worst ratio of about 20 or so.
So some of the best cricketers of all time have done it a few times.
I bet we can find some less impressive cricketers who have also done it.

It's telling that Kallis, statistically one of the greatest crickets of all time, only managed it twice. I bet during the vast majority of matches that Sobers and Botham played, the contribution of one skill was far more significant than the other. Does this make their performances less illustrious? Not IMO.

I just don't see why we should value a balanced contribution more than a performance where one discipline dominates. There are two potential slots for an all rounder - 6 and 8. From neither position would a team want a balanced contribution.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Imran was a truly great fast bowler. One of the absolute best.

In my opinion, the top 15 fast bowlers of all time are roughly on par with each other. Everyone has their faves, but really it's splitting hairs to say any are substantially better than another. Imran sits comfortably in this 15. That should be remembered. He is an ATG fast bowler before his allround status is even considered.

When it comes to selecting an ATG team (which is something I love doing), Imran comes strongly into contention (along with Hadlee) because of his ability to strengthen the batting order at number 8. He is selected on his bowling primarily, but consideration is given to his batting. And to all those who think that lower order batting is insignificant....pfffft....it so is significant. To the point where is often wins tests. Being able to contribute to a partnership of 50 or 60 can be massively significant.

Of late I include Kallis in my ATG team. As a tribute to a man who could do it all. I don't particularly need his bowling, but I think his tremendous all round career should be recognised (and I do rate slips catching more than some!)

Finally, on batting allrounders, I don't see fifth bowlers as necessary, but very very handy. And they can be containing/holding type bowlers, which both Sobers and Kallis were. I'd rather have them than not. And having six legit bowlers is ideal. How many times do you see frontliners struggle before a part timer comes on a rips out a wicket. All about variety....
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
For the record I don't believe lower order batting is insignificant, just don't rate it as highly as others do and it comes into play for my No. 8 only, after that it's the best three bowlers available period. For me it's all about balance, a No. 8 who can handle a bat, a batsman who is a competent fifth bowler and at least two batsmen/bowlers who are great slip fielders are all equally important to a side.

So for me personally a player who is brilliant in at least two of those roles and test standard in the third is the rarer talent and so Kallis, Sobers, Chappell and Hammond (some would include Botham and Miller and Mitchell and Simpson aren't too far off either) are priceless additions to any team and brings even greater value. Incidentally there are only 4 players with 3000 runs, 200 wickets and 100 catches and they would be Sobers, Kallis, Botham and surprising to some Warne.

So the 5th bowler and No. 8 batsman doesn't have to be necessarily exceptional, just a bowler who can bat a bit to extend an innings when needed and hang around with a top order batsman; and a top order batsman who wouldn't release pressure and consistently nip out the odd wicket or break a partnership when he is brought on to bowl. Because in the end you have to make the team on your primary skill and the rest is just a bonus.

Just my two cents worth.
 

viriya

International Captain
An interest All-Time XI based on this discussion:

Sunil Gavaskar
Matthew Hayden
Don Bradman
Jacques Kallis
Viv Richards
Adam Gilchritst+
Imran Khan*
Shaun Pollock
Richard Hadlee

Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralidaran

Four genuine all-rounders, batting with ~30+ average down to #10, without sacrificing world-class bowling.. This team could add a good 50-75 to a team's first innings total easily.
 
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Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I don't really understand the logic behind leaving Sobers out there. He was a better batsman than everyone in the lineup bar Bradman, even ignoring his bowling.
 

viriya

International Captain
I don't really understand the logic behind leaving Sobers out there. He was a better batsman than everyone in the lineup bar Bradman, even ignoring his bowling.
Whether he's the 2nd greatest batsman of all-time or not is debatable, he's certainly up there in the ATG batsmen conversation (I have him in my top 15). But agree that including him makes sense since this is a dream all-rounder heavy team:

Sunil Gavaskar
Matthew Hayden
Don Bradman
Jacques Kallis
Garry Sobers

Adam Gilchrist+
Imran Khan*
Shaun Pollock
Richard Hadlee

Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralidaran

Five genuine all-rounders.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
- Gavaskar
- Hutton
- Bradman
- Kallis
- Miller
- Sobers
- Gilchrist
- Imran
- Hadlee
- Davidson/Wasim
- Warne


Unreal. Everyone can bat. Everyone bar the openers, Bradman and Gilchrist can bowl. I love all rounders.
 

viriya

International Captain
- Gavaskar
- Hutton
- Bradman
- Kallis
- Miller
- Sobers
- Gilchrist
- Imran
- Hadlee
- Davidson/Wasim
- Warne


Unreal. Everyone can bat. Everyone bar the openers, Bradman and Gilchrist can bowl. I love all rounders.
Miller not good enough to be a #5 in an ATG XI
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
I realize stats isn't everything.. but a <37 average for an ATG XI #5? Nope.
Averages 40+ in the #5 position. Was his fave position Considering he's a legit frontline bowler that's incredible. True all rounder. No doubt he is a top 6 batsman in my mind.

To add some context, Miller is basically a combination of Mark Waugh (bat) and Dennis Lillee (ball). Most unreal cricketer ever,
 
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kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
- Gavaskar
- Hutton
- Bradman
- Kallis
- Miller
- Sobers
- Gilchrist
- Imran
- Hadlee
- Davidson/Wasim
- Warne


Unreal. Everyone can bat. Everyone bar the openers, Bradman and Gilchrist can bowl. I love all rounders.
Imagine hitting Wasim, Imran, Hadlee, Warne, Miller and Sobers out of the attack and then having to face Kallis
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Gavaskar and Hayden would surely have to be the most unlikable opening pair ever envisaged, surely
 

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