My SA first class cricket concerns

[Oduodu]

I am new here . So if this has perhaps been discussed then how do I search for it ???

Please can someone check if my posts are readable.. On the scified forum my posts are running outside the text not since they use WYSIWYG .

My concerns are:

Why did vernon philander had to take 250 first class wicket at 20 before being considered for the te st side ?? He is without a doubt one of the finest bowlers ever to come from. SA. Do the selectors really care to have the best possible side ??

Why is test cricket no longer the the emphasis and only T20 ?? This makes less people want to play first class cricket and this is where the talent is developed.. All the the sides that won world cups were also very good test sides at the time when they won the world cup.

So wouldn't it be better if they form a super franchise series where they have a combined cobras and knights side based in cape town - combined titans and lions squad based in pta - combined dolphin and warrior squad based in durban and then lay 5 day first class games. Then I also wanted ask if I was correct that I heard that australia in their domestic first class system in the 50 over one day competition allows 13 players per side but that only 11 to field and obviously 10 wickets to fall but that means that they have an extra bowler and extra batsman . That should obviously lift the standard of the play. If so why can't south africa do the same across al formats of the game.

I hope my questions are well received . I hope for the strongest possible sa squids irregardless race colour or creed. And the first class system and what feeds it is at the core of achieving this . Is south african firts class cricket as strong as it can be ?? Do we have people in power that cares about as much as they should ??

I love cricket and wonder if SA cricket is where its supposed to be .

Anyone who shares this same love for cricket in SA please share your ideas and comment on mine thank you.

Long live SA cricket !!

 

[Dan]

Philander was picked when he was what, 25 years old? Hardly leaving him to rot in domestic cricket for far too long. I mean, he obviously should have been given a crack earlier - and the selection of Lonwabo Tsotsobe in the hope of some left-arm X factor was a huge failure - but they only really had the one pace bowling slot open. They cycled through a couple of options in the 09/10 and 10/11 seasons who didn't pay off. Philander was very much still developing, though of obvious potential, and soon enough he got picked and performed.

And you'd know that 250 FC wickets at <20 means far less in South Africa than anywhere else in the world, given the status of the Second XI provincial competition as FC. He had 190 wickets at 19.51 for the Cape Cobras when he was selected to play for South Africa, which is a long internship but really not that far out of the ordinary, particularly in a country blessed by such fast bowling talent as Pollock, Steyn and Morkel in his early years; Philander wasn't dissimilar to Pollock as a bowler, and wasn't as suited as Morkel to the third seamer role. He should have been picked ahead of Tsotsobe and de Wet, yes, but it's hardly like he had Ishant Shama, Mohammad Sami and Shafiul Islam as the incumbents being selected ahead of him.

I think South Africa has balanced FC cricket and T20 cricket quite well; they've got the very strong franchise structure that has a lot of quality players playing FC cricket regularly -- I'd argue it's one of the strongest domestic systems in the world. Lots of experienced hands still getting a game, but not at the expense of young talent -- it's a nice balance. T20 is here to stay, like it or not, and obviously striking a balance between FC cricket and T20 cricket is important. I don't think South Africa have too many problems in that area.

As for your point on World Cup winning sides also being good at Tests, I don't get the point you're trying to make. Plenty of World Cup winning sides (Australia in '87, Sri Lanka in '96, arguably Pakistan in '92) weren't at the top of the Test ladder, but South Africa are #2 in the world in Tests (and realistically should still be #1, but whatever). They are good at Tests, so by your logic isn't there nothing to worry about wrt World Cups (especially given 2015 is being held in conditions that suit South Africa rather well)?

The 'Super Franchise' series is a terrible idea. The franchise system itself combined 2 provincial sides each (or something like that) to increase the quality of FC cricket in South Africa while still ensuring plenty of young talent get the chance to prove themselves. In a 3-team system you simply don't have enough room to give regular cricket to enough potential SA players. I mean, that's 3 wicketkeepers, 9 fast bowlers, 6 opening batsmen playing each round. That's not much to choose from, especially when you'd (presumably) have ex-Test players and FC journeymen in there. It's way too small a pool to draw future talent from. And that assumes no Test players are available. I mean, you'd get something like the following teams:

Knights/Cobras	Titans/Lions	Dolphins/Warriors
A Puttick R Hendricks R Rossouw D Elgar S van Zyl J Ontong * D Vilas + R Peterson R Kleinveldt Q Friend B Hendricks	Q de Kock J Rudolph S Cook F Berhardian H Davids A Morkel D Weise T Tsolekile +* R van der Merwe C Morris M de Lange	D van Wyk I Khan C Ingram D Miller M van Wyk D Jacobs W Parnell S Harmer K Abbott R Theron A Birch

Not a whole lot of future international prospects in there -- stacks of guys who are FC journeymen, good enough to make a side like this but not likely to play for South Africa any time soon, and a stack of fringe internationals who have already proven themselves and are competing for spots (at least in Limited Overs sides). Meanwhile, a stack of talented young players sit off every week with no chance to develop at the top level.

No country in the world, perhaps Ireland excluded, has a premier level competition with 3 teams. There's a reason for that.

The most recent Australian 50-over competition was 11-a-side, not this 13 man team thing. They've messed around with it in the past with stuff like that, but at the end of the day playing 12- or 13-a-side doesn't prepare cricketers for international cricket. It always comes back to picking 11 players for a 50-over match. Why get your players used to List A cricket with an extra batsman and bowler when the World Cup you're building towards isn't played under those rules?

 

[Oduodu]

Dan

Thank you so much for your reply. I will formulate a proper reply .an post when I can. You have given me a lot of food for thought . Dan are you based in the uk ?? Also I have virtually no playing experience. I have read bradmans best a boolk bradmans all time eleven. I stand in awe of Australian cricket and has always considered there first class system as the strongest in the world. I absolutely believe that it has to be about the quality of the cricket. Cricket is funny that way when it drops its standard people won't watch but when it is really good quality nothing compares to . Rugby and soccer is different. The quality might drop but people will still watch. Go to a 4 day game here and there is no spectators there. Bu will get back. Please just understand I don't care if the whole side is black or coloured or indian just as its the best 11 that can be chosen.

Once agaon thanks you

 

[MS99]

When Pollock was dropped from the test side, the reason given was that Smith wanted three bowlers who could bowl 140kmph+, the attack became Steyn, Morkel and Ntini. After Ntini retired it would have required an immediate change in strategy to select Philander who bowls about the same pace as Pollock. As Dan points out several players were tried, Tsotsobe was bowling a bit quicker at that point touching the 140kmph on occasion, and meant a black African could be selected which was important for political reasons, other players like Parnell and de Lange also had a great deal of potential as young players.

 

[Oduodu]

When Pollock was dropped from the test side, the reason given was that Smith wanted three bowlers who could bowl 140kmph+, the attack became Steyn, Morkel and Ntini. After Ntini retired it would have required an immediate change in strategy to select Philander who bowls about the same pace as Pollock. As Dan points out several players were tried, Tsotsobe was bowling a bit quicker at that point touching the 140kmph on occasion, and meant a black African could be selected which was important for political reasons, other players like Parnell and de Lange also had a great deal of potential as young players.

being fast has never been the allout fact that govern how good or valuable a fast bowler is . vincent van der biljl was never express pace but considered by many to be the finest bowler to never have played test cricket

 

[Oduodu]

DAN

i will answer your post like i said. i am just waiting for the world cup to pass.

on a personal note i again thank you for your reply. i know you are very knowledgable about the game. but their is serious issues that needs to be addressed in sa cricket.

i will answer you and voice my concerns.

GOD bless

 

[Marius]

Dan

Thank you so much for your reply. I will formulate a proper reply .an post when I can. You have given me a lot of food for thought . Dan are you based in the uk ?? Also I have virtually no playing experience. I have read bradmans best a boolk bradmans all time eleven. I stand in awe of Australian cricket and has always considered there first class system as the strongest in the world. I absolutely believe that it has to be about the quality of the cricket. Cricket is funny that way when it drops its standard people won't watch but when it is really good quality nothing compares to . Rugby and soccer is different. The quality might drop but people will still watch. Go to a 4 day game here and there is no spectators there. Bu will get back. Please just understand I don't care if the whole side is black or coloured or indian just as its the best 11 that can be chosen.

Once agaon thanks you

From your tone in the other thread, I find this surprising.

 

[Marius]

Dan pretty much said everthing that needed to be said with regard to your first post.

And having a combined Cobras-Knights franchise and a combined Warriors-Dolphins franchise is a terrible idea. Bloem is about 1000 km away from Cape Town, which is about the same distance between Port Elizabeth and Durban. Logistically it will be an absolute nightmare for the players, administrators, basically everyone involved in these teams.

I personally think the six team franchise is probably the best thing SA cricket has done since readmission.

 

[Oduodu]

Philander was picked when he was what, 25 years old? Hardly leaving him to rot in domestic cricket for far too long. I mean, he obviously should have been given a crack earlier - and the selection of Lonwabo Tsotsobe in the hope of some left-arm X factor was a huge failure - but they only really had the one pace bowling slot open. They cycled through a couple of options in the 09/10 and 10/11 seasons who didn't pay off. Philander was very much still developing, though of obvious potential, and soon enough he got picked and performed.

And you'd know that 250 FC wickets at <20 means far less in South Africa than anywhere else in the world, given the status of the Second XI provincial competition as FC. He had 190 wickets at 19.51 for the Cape Cobras when he was selected to play for South Africa, which is a long internship but really not that far out of the ordinary, particularly in a country blessed by such fast bowling talent as Pollock, Steyn and Morkel in his early years; Philander wasn't dissimilar to Pollock as a bowler, and wasn't as suited as Morkel to the third seamer role. He should have been picked ahead of Tsotsobe and de Wet, yes, but it's hardly like he had Ishant Shama, Mohammad Sami and Shafiul Islam as the incumbents being selected ahead of him.

I think South Africa has balanced FC cricket and T20 cricket quite well; they've got the very strong franchise structure that has a lot of quality players playing FC cricket regularly -- I'd argue it's one of the strongest domestic systems in the world. Lots of experienced hands still getting a game, but not at the expense of young talent -- it's a nice balance. T20 is here to stay, like it or not, and obviously striking a balance between FC cricket and T20 cricket is important. I don't think South Africa have too many problems in that area.

As for your point on World Cup winning sides also being good at Tests, I don't get the point you're trying to make. Plenty of World Cup winning sides (Australia in '87, Sri Lanka in '96, arguably Pakistan in '92) weren't at the top of the Test ladder, but South Africa are #2 in the world in Tests (and realistically should still be #1, but whatever). They are good at Tests, so by your logic isn't there nothing to worry about wrt World Cups (especially given 2015 is being held in conditions that suit South Africa rather well)?

The 'Super Franchise' series is a terrible idea. The franchise system itself combined 2 provincial sides each (or something like that) to increase the quality of FC cricket in South Africa while still ensuring plenty of young talent get the chance to prove themselves. In a 3-team system you simply don't have enough room to give regular cricket to enough potential SA players. I mean, that's 3 wicketkeepers, 9 fast bowlers, 6 opening batsmen playing each round. That's not much to choose from, especially when you'd (presumably) have ex-Test players and FC journeymen in there. It's way too small a pool to draw future talent from. And that assumes no Test players are available. I mean, you'd get something like the following teams:

Knights/Cobras	Titans/Lions	Dolphins/Warriors
A Puttick R Hendricks R Rossouw D Elgar S van Zyl J Ontong * D Vilas + R Peterson R Kleinveldt Q Friend B Hendricks	Q de Kock J Rudolph S Cook F Berhardian H Davids A Morkel D Weise T Tsolekile +* R van der Merwe C Morris M de Lange	D van Wyk I Khan C Ingram D Miller M van Wyk D Jacobs W Parnell S Harmer K Abbott R Theron A Birch

Not a whole lot of future international prospects in there -- stacks of guys who are FC journeymen, good enough to make a side like this but not likely to play for South Africa any time soon, and a stack of fringe internationals who have already proven themselves and are competing for spots (at least in Limited Overs sides). Meanwhile, a stack of talented young players sit off every week with no chance to develop at the top level.

No country in the world, perhaps Ireland excluded, has a premier level competition with 3 teams. There's a reason for that.

The most recent Australian 50-over competition was 11-a-side, not this 13 man team thing. They've messed around with it in the past with stuff like that, but at the end of the day playing 12- or 13-a-side doesn't prepare cricketers for international cricket. It always comes back to picking 11 players for a 50-over match. Why get your players used to List A cricket with an extra batsman and bowler when the World Cup you're building towards isn't played under those rules?

just as a quick response i never intended to imply that therse 3 sides should replace the the 6 sides. i implied that they shouid come above the 6 franchise meaning that there should be and additional 33 players who can play in the sa first class system. but now with the added benefit of playing the best players in the country which prepare players better for the highest level.

i will also address the issue of csa receiving R1500 million rand from an indian broadcaster for the test series between india and sa here in sa . what happened to that money ?? why wasnt it used to set up sabc 3 transmittters in underp riviledged areas in south africa? does people know that most of the coloured and black townships doesnt receive sabc 3 where all the cricket are being broadcasted ?? comments on that are welcome.

in roughly 97/98 they changed the first class system from 5 A leuge sides (Transvaal ' Northern Transvaal ' Western Province ' Natal 'Eestern Province) to in 11 A leauge sides.

why was it needed to introduce the 6 side franchise system in around 2002 2003 ?

wouldnt that have meant many players would not have gotten exposure ??

until then

 

[Marius]

just as a quick response i never intended to imply that therse 3 sides should replace the the 6 sides. i implied that they shouid come above the 6 franchise meaning that there should be and additional 33 players who can play in the sa first class system. but now with the added benefit of playing the best players in the country which prepare players better for the highest level.

i will also address the issue of csa receiving R1500 million rand from an indian broadcaster for the test series between india and sa here in sa . what happened to that money ?? why wasnt it used to set up sabc 3 transmittters in underp riviledged areas in south africa? does people know that most of the coloured and black townships doesnt receive sabc 3 where all the cricket are being broadcasted ?? comments on that are welcome.

until then

Why must Cricket South Africa set up transmitters in under-privileged areas? Surely that's the job of the government and the SABC?

 

[Oduodu]

From your tone in the other thread, I find this surprising.

you are welcome to elaborate on that statement. what is my tone ? in the other thread ??

 

[Oduodu]

Why must Cricket South Africa set up transmitters in under-privileged areas? Surely that's the job of the government and the SABC?

great question: why doesnt the government do that if they are concerned about the wrongs of apartheid ?

 

[Oduodu]

Dan pretty much said everthing that needed to be said with regard to your first post.

And having a combined Cobras-Knights franchise and a combined Warriors-Dolphins franchise is a terrible idea. Bloem is about 1000 km away from Cape Town, which is about the same distance between Port Elizabeth and Durban. Logistically it will be an absolute nightmare for the players, administrators, basically everyone involved in these teams.

I personally think the six team franchise is probably the best thing SA cricket has done since readmission.

how many players missed out because there are now only 6 instead of 11 sides for underpriveledged playes to get exposure in ???

 

[Marius]

how many players missed out because there are now only 6 instead of 11 sides for underpriveledged playes to get exposure in ???

There's still the CSA first-class competition which has 14 sides in it (one of which is Namibia). Excluding Namibia that means there are 19 first-class sides for underprivileged players to get exposure in...

 

[Oduodu]

they must be part of the top 6 to be chosen for the national side. how does this fix the problem of representivity in the national squad ??

 

[Marius]

they must be part of the top 6 to be chosen for the national side. how does this fix the problem of representivity in the national squad ??

The top 6 franchise teams have to have at least 5 POCs of which at least two must be black African.

Think that's going some of the way to do it.

 

[Oduodu]

The top 6 franchise teams have to have at least 5 POCs of which at least two must be black African.

Think that's going some of the way to do it.

is that the case at present ??

 

[Marius]

is that the case at present ??

Yes, go look at the players who have been playing this season, all sides have been meeting the quota.

 

[Oduodu]

Yes, go look at the players who have been playing this season, all sides have been meeting the quota.

ok

there shoudnt be a shortage of batsmen bowlers of colour to pick from.

still anyone able to try and explain why south africa folded against pakistan ??

 

[Dan]

ok

there shoudnt be a shortage of batsmen bowlers of colour to pick from.

still anyone able to try and explain why south africa folded against pakistan ??

Yeah, there's no shortage of options -- it's just that none of them are quite good enough yet. There are time lags with these things as policies change. I imagine a lot of the young players of colour around will turn into very solid domestic performers, with many going on to acquit themselves well at the international level.