Ravi Ashwin vs Daniel Vettori

[Maximas]

Turning the ball away from the batsman is generally an advantage in most conditions IMO, depends on how many left-handers are in the team really.

 

[Hurricane]

Pure guesswork but I think leggies and SLAs might like the bouncy pitches which might bring in the slips more. At the same time, an offie spinning it in with nice predictable bounce would be easier to hit through the arc for an attacking right hander.

Could be talking out of my behind here, jus t trying to find some reason why off spinners always get smashed in Oz

A quick fiddle with stats guru shows left arm spinners avg 37 in Aus while right arm spinners average 35 - stats guru doesn't allow you to restrict it to off spin so there will be some leggies in there. I also included Australian bowlers so Shane Warne himself would bring the average of the right handers down slightly.

 

[Maximas]

Well, thinking recently, some of the most successful overseas spinners in Australia have been right arm wrist spinners, Kumble and Kaneria come to mind, and then Warne, so I wouldn't read much into that data at all tbh, interesting though

 

[OverratedSanity]

Well, thinking recently, some of the most successful overseas spinners in Australia have been right arm wrist spinners, Kumble and Kaneria come to mind, and then Warne, so I wouldn't read much into that data at all tbh, interesting though

All of the successful ones have been leggies. Mushtaq had an excellent tour in 1995. Add to that the fact that Australia have themselves produced 4 of the greatest leggies ever in Warne, Grimmett, O'Reilly and MacGill.

A quick fiddle with stats guru shows left arm spinners avg 37 in Aus while right arm spinners average 35 - stats guru doesn't allow you to restrict it to off spin so there will be some leggies in there. I also included Australian bowlers so Shane Warne himself would bring the average of the right handers down slightly.

Yeah but it's pushed up by Tahir

 

[NUFAN]

Well, thinking recently, some of the most successful overseas spinners in Australia have been right arm wrist spinners, Kumble and Kaneria come to mind, and then Warne, so I wouldn't read much into that data at all tbh, interesting though

I don't recall Kaneria being that successful in Australia at all. Wasn't he often like 1/100 which turned into 5/150 when our middle order/tail got out searching for quick runs when Australia were already in a dominant position.

 

[Maximas]

Had a couple of good hauls at Sydney on his last couple of tours, got more wickets than most overseas spinners get

 

[Jono]

I don't recall Kaneria being that successful in Australia at all. Wasn't he often like 1/100 which turned into 5/150 when our middle order/tail got out searching for quick runs when Australia were already in a dominant position.

Well he probably won Pakistan the Sydney test, if Akmal could catch/stump and the match wasn't fixed or whatever the situation was.

That's good enough to have a successful tour as a spinner in Aust I Reckon.

 

[harsh.ag]

Yeah, when I read accounts of long tours from back in the day, a player was said to have done well if he played well against the FC sides and won 1 test for the tourists.

 

[NUFAN]

Well he probably won Pakistan the Sydney test, if Akmal could catch/stump and the match wasn't fixed or whatever the situation was.

That's good enough to have a successful tour as a spinner in Aust I Reckon.

Such low standards eh. Probably winning a match if they took there wickets quicker and made more runs.

Yeah, when I read accounts of long tours from back in the day, a player was said to have done well if he played well against the FC sides and won 1 test for the tourists.

Both things that Kaneria failed to do.

 

[hendrix]

While I'd probably rate Vettori's batting ahead of Ashwin's, bowling-wise Vettori has some pretty significant problems. His inability to actually turn the ball left him ineffective, even in dry, spinning conditions. Vettori hasn't won a test match with the ball for New Zealand since he was 18 years old. Given that's what he's primarily in the side to do, I'd prefer Ashwin in tests.

In ODI's it's definitely Vettori though. One of the great ODI bowlers of all time.

Honestly, this is too Bahnzian for me. While I too am disappointed with Vettori's numbers on occasion, there have been plenty of occasions where he's out-bowled some of the best spin bowlers in the world. A vast chunk of his career was spent during a time when the game heavily favoured batsmen, and NZ also had a very weak attack.

He's never been a massively penetrative bowler, but when you see the likes of Ravindra Jadeja taking a test spot ahead of Ashwin (weird selection policy notwithstanding), I find it very difficult to say that Vettori isn't massively superior to both of them. Just consider that Monty Panesar recently outbowled them both, and we've seen Vettori rip through England when Panesar has been ineffective.

He's not Herath, but there was a point in time when he was legitimately the 4th best spinner in the world behind Warne, Murali and perhaps Harbhajan.

 

[Spark]

Such low standards eh. Probably winning a match if they took there wickets quicker and made more runs.

That's hardly fair tbh.

 

[Furball]

Haha yeah it's hardly fair to criticise a bowler if his fielders can't field.

 

[NUFAN]

I swear I read things differently to others on here.

If you're a bowler who bowls poorly for large portions and you don't get enough wickets (even due to dropped catches) its hardly a successful tour. Unlucky at times perhaps but successful? please..

 

[Jono]

This is a special case though. Literally if Akmal takes a catch/stumping in Sydney off Kaneria's bowling Pakistan win that test, something they haven't done in Australia for a very long time. Something spinners themselves very rarely do in Australia anyway. And they were also only in that position because of Kaneria.

 

[viriya]

I think Ashwin's career to date is relatively similar to Vettori's.. I think he's a slightly better batsman though, with the bowling more even with Ashwin having the advantage of bowling in helpful conditions most of the time. Since he has perfected the carrom ball now I think he probably will be more penetrative as a bowler going forward as well.

Interesting take here:
cricrate | Daniel Vettori vs Ravichandran Ashwin

 

[NUFAN]

This is a special case though. Literally if Akmal takes a catch/stumping in Sydney off Kaneria's bowling Pakistan win that test, something they haven't done in Australia for a very long time. Something spinners themselves very rarely do in Australia anyway. And they were also only in that position because of Kaneria.

You're a special case.


Okay, IF Akmal takes the catch and stumpings and then the other batsman perfirmed the same way as they did or worse and Pakistan batsman made the runs, Kaneria would have had 1 successful Test match in Aus.

 

[Maximas]

What, so the team has to win for a bowler to have a good match?

 

[Jono]

What, so the team has to win for a bowler to have a good match?

Regardless, I guess Nufers is saying that even if that happens and Pakistan win the test, Kaneria only had one good test, and as such not a "successful" tour.

 

[Shri]

I think Ashwin's career to date is relatively similar to Vettori's.. I think he's a slightly better batsman though, with the bowling more even with Ashwin having the advantage of bowling in helpful conditions most of the time. Since he has perfected the carrom ball now I think he probably will be more penetrative as a bowler going forward as well.

Interesting take here:
cricrate | Daniel Vettori vs Ravichandran Ashwin

Had no idea Ashwin's test match strike rate as a batsman was that good. And he seems to have done well as a batsman in Australia too.

 

[Jono]

Thought you were his biggest fan ffs