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Right Armers ATG vs Left Armers ATG

watson

Banned
Im pretty surprised no one has picked Hayden so far,and also that Gower and especially Border arent automatic picks for the left handers side.
I don't know why England didn't bat Gower at No.3 more often as he clearly liked the new ball flying off the bat. He averaged 49 in that position against some pretty good attacks, with his toughest assignment probably being the West Indies tour of 1985/86. For the series he averaged a creditable 37, after making two 60s and a 90. Needless to say the corresponding attack was comprised of Marshall, Holding, Garner, Walsh and Patterson.

Lara and Harvey also averaged well when facing the (almost) new-ball at first-drop. But both players have an inflated average due to some enormous scores against mediocre attacks. Gower didn't really have that luxury. So yes, Gower is definitely worth consideration for the lefties No.3 spot. Of course, when it comes to the middle-order he really doesn't have a hope competing against Pollock, Sobers, Border, etc.
 

salman85

International Debutant
Hayden doesn't deserve a spot.

Border does, but Gower is not going to be selected over a middle order of Lara, Border, Harvey and Sobers by anyone.
Hayden does deserve a spot IMO.a greater batsman than Lawry atleast.You could throw the flat track bully argument against him,but he could completley murder bowling attacks when on song.
 

watson

Banned
Hayden does deserve a spot IMO.a greater batsman than Lawry atleast.You could throw the flat track bully argument against him,but he could completley murder bowling attacks when on song.
To be pedantic - he could completely murder mediocre bowling attacks when on song.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Hayden does deserve a spot IMO.a greater batsman than Lawry atleast.You could throw the flat track bully argument against him,but he could completley murder bowling attacks when on song.
Hayden was good enough, but got found out against better quick bowling. I'd take Lawry as my opener without hesitation. I'd also rank Taylor, Langer and Morris ahead of him as great Australian LH openers.
 

watson

Banned
They've gotta bowl left armed if they're in the LA XI surely! Reckon Mitch sneaks in now, particularly with the steadiness of Davo and Sobers in the team.

- Lawry
- Taylor
- Lara
- Border
- Sobers
- Harvey
- Gilchrist
- Wasim
- Johnson
- Davidson
- Johnston



- Hobbs
- Hutton
- V. Richards
- Tendulkar
- G. Chappell
- Miller
- Knott
- Imran
- Marshall
- Lillee
- O'Reilly
Tubby Taylor's SR was even slower than Lawry's, so the beginning of the innings would resemble a zombie on mogadon. Lawry or Taylor need someone like Fredericks I reckon.
 

watson

Banned
The Ambi's

01. Hanif Mohammad
02. Mark Taylor
03. Brian Lara
04. Frank Worrell
05. Michael Clarke
06. Andy Flower (bowls right handed)
07. Vinoo Mankad
08. Jack Gregory
09. Richard Hadlee
10. Bill O'Reilly
11. Curtly Ambrose

12th Charlie Macartney or Wilfred Rhodes
 
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Muloghonto

U19 12th Man
Just an idea that struck me.I dont think theres been a thread along these lines before so i thought ill make one.

As the title suggests, you have to come up with one ATG of all right handers, and the other ATG team of all left handers, and then decide which one is stronger according to each member.I dont think theres a possibility of a left handers team being better than the right handers team because of the sheer number of more ATG players being right handers, but lets see what teams people come up with.

Only two conditions :

1) No bradman in the right handers ATG side,just to make things slightly even.

2)Players who bowl right handed and bat left handed or vice versa can only be selected in the left handers ATG side.
Except for Ambrose, are there any ATG bowlers who bowl right handed but bat left handed ?
 

Muloghonto

U19 12th Man
Rightie XI:

Sunny Gavaskar
Geoff Boycott
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Greg Chappell
Alan Knott
Keith Miller
Imran Khan
Malcolm Marshall
Glenn McGrath
Muttiah Muralitharan

12th man: Jacques kallis

Lefties XI:

Hanif Mohammed
Graeme Smith
Brian Lara
Andy Flower
Alan Border
Gary Sobers
Adam Gillchrist
Wasim Akram
Alan Davidson
Bishen Bedi
Derek Underwood

12th man: Vinoo Mankad.
 
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Muloghonto

U19 12th Man
Also people who are picking Warne over Murali in the righties XI: you guys do realize that while Murali vs Warne might be a never-ending debate on who's better overall, it is a virtual no contest when bowling to lefties right ? Except for Lara, no leftie ever held his own against Murali. Warne got creamed by several lefties all over his career.
It is not tough to figure out why either. A right arm offie with legendary control ( Murali) takes the ball away from the leftie. Add in his doosra and lefties are in a whole world of hurt against him than against Warne, who brings the ball in to the lefties.
 

watson

Banned
Also people who are picking Warne over Murali in the righties XI: you guys do realize that while Murali vs Warne might be a never-ending debate on who's better overall, it is a virtual no contest when bowling to lefties right ? Except for Lara, no leftie ever held his own against Murali. Warne got creamed by several lefties all over his career.
It is not tough to figure out why either. A right arm offie with legendary control ( Murali) takes the ball away from the leftie. Add in his doosra and lefties are in a whole world of hurt against him than against Warne, who brings the ball in to the lefties.
This is assumption based on casual empirical observation. To see whetherr it is true in reality you would compare the ratio of - Lefties dismissed by Murali to Righties dismissed by Murali - to the ratio of - Total Lefties to Total Righties - (who played during Murali's era), and see which is greater.

For you to be correct; LDM/RDM > TL/TR by a significant degree.

Or something like that.

Point being that Warne was brilliant no matter whether the batsman was left handed or not.
 
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fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Hanif batted and bowled right handed, although I seem to recall reading somewhere that he did turn himself round and bowl left arm on occasion, and he is said to have invented the reverse sweep, so perhaps that's how he gets into Muloghonto's XI?
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Righties XI: Hobbs | Hutton | Viv | Tendulkar | Chappell | Kallis | Knott | Imran | Marshall | Murali | McGrath

Lefties XI: Hayden | Smith | Lara | Pollock | Border | Sobers | Gilchrist | Wasim | Davidson | Verity/Bedi | Bruce Reid |

It seems pretty obvious that only specialist lefty bowlers who bat right handed should be the exception from the complete righty or lefty rule, regardless of what the OP says. So I am not sure Verity counts as his batting average is 20 in tests with 3 fifties. Bedi perhaps a better option.

According to OP Lefties XI: Worrell | Smith | Lara | Pollock | Border | Sobers | Gilly | Hadlee | Wasim | O'Reilly | Ambrose
 
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Muloghonto

U19 12th Man
This is assumption based on casual empirical observation. To see whetherr it is true in reality you would compare the ratio of - Lefties dismissed by Murali to Righties dismissed by Murali - to the ratio of - Total Lefties to Total Righties - (who played during Murali's era), and see which is greater.

For you to be correct; LDM/RDM > TL/TR by a significant degree.

Or something like that.

Point being that Warne was brilliant no matter whether the batsman was left handed or not.
Given that virtually everyone is putting names like Hobbs, Hutton, etc. forward based on 2nd hand knowledge of people passing judgements on these guys based on their casual empirical observation, it is more than fair to use the same benchmark on Warne/Murali and others who I have seen personally and is thus, a 1st hand empirical observation.

Also, your methodology is flawed. The ratio of lefties to righties dismissed is inherently dependent on the number of lefties and righties in the lineup. For eg, if you play against a team of ten righties and one leftie, unless you only take just one wicket (of the leftie), any 5 wicket haul or more will inherently skew the figure in favour of the righties ratio. The opposite also applies.
In Warne's time, the team with the most # of lefties playing test cricket were West Indies and England. Warne has far more tests against them, so i expect his lefties to righties ratio to be greater than Murali's, who played significantly less against them.

Warne was a brilliant bowler (except against India, against whom Murali was far more threatening) but he was distinctly better against righties than lefties.
Lara, Ganguly, for example utterly dominated Warne. Made him look like Tahir more often than not. Against Murali, Lara hung around dourly ( even in the series Lara scored 600+ runs, he hung on for dear life against Murali and smashed everyone else) while Ganguly was distinctly uncomfortable against Murali.
To any neutral observer (and I am, since I am neither Aussie, nor Lankan) who've seen them, it is patently obvious that Murali was much, much better against lefties than Righties compared to Warne.
This is not just because Murali's stock ball went away from the lefties/Warne's stock ball came into them and that Murali was more accurate than Warne, its also because Murali's doosra turned prodigiously the other way, which meant Lefties couldnt just leave anything pitching on leg or middle from Murali to carry past offstump, while Warne never had a good googly (it was well disguised but it held its line, didnt turn the other way much) and lefties could afford to leave anything pitching on leg from Warne due to it.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Let's cut the crap. Wasim, Davidson, Reid/Johnson/Johnston, Verity/Bedi/Underwood could quite comprehensively beat the Righties without Bradman. No need to descend to picking up Hadlee, Ambrose and O'Reilly.
 

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