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Thread: The case of the missing black Test cricketer

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marius View Post
    Long response there dude, but it's clear that you have strong feelings on the subject, as do I.

    Look, transformation is vital, I'm not agreeing with you. But the point is, CSA is not keeping blacks out the Test side on purpose.
    If you had read "the long response", you would notice that I chronicled 20+ years of transformation and quota issues that hint to the assertion that CSA has been negligent in fulfilling the political objectives of our country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marius
    Here's my challenge to you, select a representative SA side now, to face Aus in Feb. Who would you pick?
    Its not about picking a team or any AA candidates to make up the numbers. I have been at pains in this thread to do the following (bar some of the emotional rants):

    1. Provide history and context of transformation and quota's in the country.
    2. Provide political context for this discussion.
    3. Highlight socio-economic and race inequalities and the difficulties that traditionally non-white cricketers face.

    You are being so adamant that you are right (which I'm not disputing) and yet in your narrowist view, you are ignoring cold hard reality. If you had your finger on the pulse of the country, you would realize that this has already turned into a conflict between the cricket purists, idealists and perceived pro white dominance groups and the overwhelming majority of the country who want the ANC to put their foot down and show CSA who is running this country. It doesn't take a rocket science degree to see that the minority is bringing a water pistol to the battle and the other side a tank.

    Rome is burning and while many a cricket enthusiast would be most happy to enjoy the cricket and ignore the outside world, it might be more prudent to take a lesson from history and maybe ask Barry Richards and company whether triumph over the the then number 1 ranked aussie team in the often celebrated 1969/1970 series was worth the 20 years of exile - all because the then regime showed the other 90% of the country the middle finger and wouldn't change.

    Calmer heads need to prevail in this dispute and many need to shelve their ideal's and principles and let cold hard reality start dictating general thinking. The current situation is untenable and if CSA and its principles continue with its perceived resistance to political ideals, the government will simply just get tired of talking and forcefully dismantle the current CSA apparatus, employing AA bureaucrats take over and then run it into the ground with their incompetence...ala Cricket Zimbabwe. You and me might offer up a tear and a whimper for a "Team that could have been" but the other overwhelming black majority of the country will simply say "Good riddance to bad rubbish!".

    I repeat, I don't want to "select a representative SA side" or implement quota's or push a black agenda. I'm more interested in compromising and saving as much of Cricket SA as possible while many in their purist and idealistic obduracy are willing to go out all guns blazing and run it into the ground.
    Last edited by Unomaas; 10-01-2014 at 02:26 PM.

  2. #122
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    @Unomaas - you may want to edit your post slightly - one or two of the sentences are a bit finger pointyish.

    As for the Maoris in the NZ team. Jesse Ryder has some Maori blood in him. To what extent I don't know.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    @Unomaas - you may want to edit your post slightly - one or two of the sentences are a bit finger pointyish.
    I've taken your advice and changed where necessary but being in such a heightened and emotional state and feeling like I have an emotionally charged energiser battery stuck up my @rse, I might have missed "pointyish" references. If anyone reading this feels I am being overly "pointyish", please accept humble apologies.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unomaas View Post
    Dude! I am Coloured but my family, extended family and community is such a mish-mash of racial and cultural diversity, I sometimes have to take a timeout to remember that I am "Coloured".

    Its been 20 years since since the dawn of democracy in our country and things have definitely changed...the most notable being issues revolving around race, ethnicity and culture. Where previously a system seeked to subjugate people's by classifying them, we now have taken ownership of those label's - once so repugnant - and made them our own investing them with context, meaning, pride and identity. So when I say I am Coloured, it has significance for me and others beyond the apartheid classification system. Similarly, when someone say's they are mixed race, it has meaning and context beyond the Apartheid classification system.

    This principle is applicable to all race groups across SA. You go to Johannesburg and you call someone of mixed race/ethnicity a "Coloured" and they take offense! You go to the Western Cape and call someone of mixed ethnicity a "Mixed Race" and they will take offense.

    You as an individual own your culture and identity! It does not own you!

    As an example, Phylicia Oppelt, the editor of the Sunday times, refers to her self as black (hence she is very adamant and vocal about pro-transformation). You would be hard pressed to actually associate her name and visual racial make up as black but that's what she say's so that's the end of the discussion!

    When you learn to see South Africa through Nelson's Mandela's eyes, you see a land of so much ethnic, racial and cultural diversity. Where previously there were just massive blobs of people stuffed into a classifications, you now have distinct racial, ethnic and cultural distinctions. For instance, white people take proud in being distinguished as Afrikaner, European, French Huguenot, Dutch where black people take proud in being Zulu, Zhosa, Venda, Sotho, Shangaan, Ndebele, etc, people of sub continent descent take pride in being Pakistani, Arabic, Indian and people in the Western cape take distinct pride in being classed as Malay, Coloured, Mixed Race, Xhosa, San or Khoi.
    And this is SA's problem. Everyone is still paranoid and obsessed with race, even if they aren't subjugating each other.

    Of course apartheid is responsible for it, but as long as this obsession remains these problems will stay.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by NasserFan207 View Post
    And this is SA's problem. Everyone is still paranoid and obsessed with race, even if they aren't subjugating each other.

    Of course apartheid is responsible for it, but as long as this obsession remains these problems will stay.
    The American civil war concluded in 1865 and to this day, America is still grappling with issues of racism and inequality. If America couldn't resolve this problem in 149 years, what makes you think that we can resolve it in 20 years?

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unomaas View Post
    The American civil war concluded in 1865 and to this day, America is still grappling with issues of racism and inequality. If America couldn't resolve this problem in 149 years, what makes you think that we can resolve it in 20 years?
    I don't blame you for it, I'm just explaining the root cause of these problems. America has their own.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unomaas View Post
    If you had read "the long response", you would notice that I chronicled 20+ years of transformation and quota issues that hint to the assertion that CSA has been negligent in fulfilling the political objectives of our country.



    Its not about picking a team or any AA candidates to make up the numbers. I have been at pains in this thread to do the following (bar some of the emotional rants):

    1. Provide history and context of transformation and quota's in the country.
    2. Provide political context for this discussion.
    3. Highlight socio-economic and race inequalities and the difficulties that traditionally non-white cricketers face.

    You are being so adamant that you are right (which I'm not disputing) and yet in your narrowist view, you are ignoring cold hard reality. If you had your finger on the pulse of the country, you would realize that this has already turned into a conflict between the cricket purists, idealists and perceived pro white dominance groups and the overwhelming majority of the country who want the ANC to put their foot down and show CSA who is running this country. It doesn't take a rocket science degree to see that the minority is bringing a water pistol to the battle and the other side a tank.

    Rome is burning and while many a cricket enthusiast would be most happy to enjoy the cricket and ignore the outside world, it might be more prudent to take a lesson from history and maybe ask Barry Richards and company whether triumph over the the then number 1 ranked aussie team in the often celebrated 1969/1970 series was worth the 20 years of exile - all because the then regime showed the other 90% of the country the middle finger and wouldn't change.

    Calmer heads need to prevail in this dispute and many need to shelve their ideal's and principles and let cold hard reality start dictating general thinking. The current situation is untenable and if CSA and its principles continue with its perceived resistance to political ideals, the government will simply just get tired of talking and forcefully dismantle the current CSA apparatus, employing AA bureaucrats take over and then run it into the ground with their incompetence...ala Cricket Zimbabwe. You and me might offer up a tear and a whimper for a "Team that could have been" but the other overwhelming black majority of the country will simply say "Good riddance to bad rubbish!".

    I repeat, I don't want to "select a representative SA side" or implement quota's or push a black agenda. I'm more interested in compromising and saving as much of Cricket SA as possible while many in their purist and idealistic obduracy are willing to go out all guns blazing and run it into the ground.
    That is a pretty long winded reply to "who would you pick to play australia".

    Anyway its BS, why does CSA have to be tasked with solving the countries problems? Your poor little black kid who has get up very early and come home late which is a large percentage of the population does not care about cricket and his current situation give him very little choice on the matter. Selecting two black players who likely got to go to good schools wont solve this socio economic issue.

    Its like your house starts cracking and you just patch over the walls to say, "oi!, come live here everyone"

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by kykweer.proteas View Post
    That is a pretty long winded reply to "who would you pick to play australia".
    It was an ignorant question to start off with. It required a 'pretty long winded reply' to enlighten.

    Quote Originally Posted by kykweer.proteas View Post
    Anyway its BS, why does CSA have to be tasked with solving the countries problems?
    Because its called Cricket South Africa. It is subservient to the will of the South African people. Our tax money subsidizes the team. Don't like it...? Take the flag off the shirt, and change the team name. Problem solved.

    Quote Originally Posted by kykweer.proteas View Post
    Your poor little black kid who has get up very early and come home late which is a large percentage of the population does not care about cricket and his current situation give him very little choice on the matter.
    Broad based generalisations with little or no facts to back it up. When you have concrete empirical data or or substantial first hand related evidence, lets talk again.

    Quote Originally Posted by kykweer.proteas View Post
    Selecting two black players who likely got to go to good schools wont solve this socio economic issue.
    But it will put a plaster on the issue until CSA show's that it is committed to the ideal's of the ruling majority.

    Quote Originally Posted by kykweer.proteas View Post
    Its like your house starts cracking and you just patch over the walls to say, "oi!, come live here everyone"
    The problem with your analogy is that you start at the end of the story instead of the beginning. Maybe it would have been more prudent to make sure that you weren't buying a old or crap house in the first place and then you would not be in a situation where you had to patch cracks?

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by NasserFan207 View Post
    I don't blame you for it, I'm just explaining the root cause of these problems. America has their own.
    Your initial comment was inflammatory because you are going to great pain's to state the obvious and so inviting ridicule. To many Saffa's, its patronizing because it breed's assumption's that we don't have the capacity to think and understand the nature of our dilemma? Maybe that's not what you mean't but without context, I take comments at face value.

    As a people and nation, we understand what the problem is. We just don't conclusively know how to fix it in the immediate to short term with win-win results for everyone concerned.
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  10. #130
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unomaas View Post
    It was an ignorant question to start off with. It required a 'pretty long winded reply' to enlighten.



    Because its called Cricket South Africa. It is subservient to the will of the South African people. Our tax money subsidizes the team. Don't like it...? Take the flag off the shirt, and change the team name. Problem solved.



    Broad based generalisations with little or no facts to back it up. When you have concrete empirical data or or substantial first hand related evidence, lets talk again.



    But it will put a plaster on the issue until CSA show's that it is committed to the ideal's of the ruling majority.



    The problem with your analogy is that you start at the end of the story instead of the beginning. Maybe it would have been more prudent to make sure that you weren't buying a old or crap house in the first place and then you would not be in a situation where you had to patch cracks?
    How was it an ignorant question? I'm asking you for the practical implications of what you suggest? Transformation is important but it's easy for guys like you to scream 'Cricket SA IZ RACIZT!' but you ignore the question when I ask you to explain the practical implications.

    Where does our tax money subsidise the national side? And since when must a sports team bow to the will of the majority? That is ridiculous.

    And you accuse Kykweer of assertions with no facts to back them up. But you have been doing exactly the same thing!

    And what exactly are the 'ideals of the ruling majority'? You do know that democracy doesn't mean 'tyranny of the majority' right? If South Africa only had laws that the majority of the country wanted, we would not have abortion rights, the death penalty would still exist, and gay people would not have their protected in our Constitution.

    Cricket SA is doing a lot for young black cricketers. Ayabulela Gqamane got a flippen cricket bursary when he was 6 years old, and that is one example. You are obviously a member of the 'Transformation at Any Cost' brigade.

    So, against Australia, let's leave out Faf and put Themba Bavuma in, and drop Steyn and Morkel and let Siboto and Mbhalathi play. There. team's transformed, and we lose the series 3-0.

    Fantastic.

  12. #132
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    Do we also select our team by population? 23% of the team HAS to be from Gauteng, 5.3% has to be from the free state etc... or else its not a "south african" team...

    This "representitive SA side" thing is simply BS when it is completely taken out of context.

    And some coloured players carried through the age groups system themselves find a false sense of confidence when they want to become professionals.

    Also the Majority of the ruling majority could not care less about cricket. And ive also seen it, that when a quota does not perform its his own mates that come down on him the hardest. So if we force one now and that guy goes through a slump(that could happen to anyone) the pressure on that guy would be ridiculous. so now this bowler is not performing, replace him with a black batsmen etc...

    Now the whole team mantra is screwed like our ODI team was after Johan Botha (unrelated to quotas, but something went wrong) left and we start performing terribly...

    best advertisement?

    Force a quota at the team, admit the whole system is broken and kill the sport in South Africa.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by kykweer.proteas View Post
    Do we also select our team by population? 23% of the team HAS to be from Gauteng, 5.3% has to be from the free state etc... or else its not a "south african" team...

    This "representitive SA side" thing is simply BS when it is completely taken out of context.

    And some coloured players carried through the age groups system themselves find a false sense of confidence when they want to become professionals.

    Also the Majority of the ruling majority could not care less about cricket. And ive also seen it, that when a quota does not perform its his own mates that come down on him the hardest. So if we force one now and that guy goes through a slump(that could happen to anyone) the pressure on that guy would be ridiculous. so now this bowler is not performing, replace him with a black batsmen etc...

    Now the whole team mantra is screwed like our ODI team was after Johan Botha (unrelated to quotas, but something went wrong) left and we start performing terribly...

    best advertisement?

    Force a quota at the team, admit the whole system is broken and kill the sport in South Africa.
    A representative South African side is one with 11 South Africans in it.

    I couldn't care less if the team is 100% white, 100% black, or only made up of Martian lesbians. As long as it is a winning team, and selections are made on merit I will support it.

    I also don't think people are as worried about the racial make-up of our national sides as zealots like Unomaas claim. Look at the outpouring of support for the Springboks from all South Africans (including black SAns) when we won the World Cup in 2007, and that side did not have one black African in it.

    Or look at the support for Bafana by all SAns in 2010 when we hosted the Football WC (and Booth was the only white guy who was a regular).

  14. #134
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    Very interesting post.

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