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Thread: The case of the missing black Test cricketer

  1. #31
    U19 12th Man Rasimione's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marius View Post
    I've read this about 5 times and I'm still not sure what your point is.
    I think what he is saying is that we can't have the status quo remain. it's untennable. I could be wrong though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasimione View Post
    I think what he is saying is that we can't have the status quo remain. it's untennable. I could be wrong though.
    You may be right.

    But also, the status quo cannot remain. But nor can we put people in the Test XI because of the colour of their skin.

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    Very interesting thread and quite a few valid points. I think we cannot underestimate the financial barrier to cricket, or sport, in general in SA. When you see people earning a pittance, you often ask yourself " how do they live?" and I can assure you that playing for the national team in any sport is the furthest thing from their mind.They just want to get by IMO.


    I love cricket and played it from the age of 7 with my brothers and neighborhood kids and learnt all the ideas and nuisances at an early age, but it wasn't possible to play club cricket in my community. There was a club but how do you go up to your parents who earned minimum wage, enough just to keep bread on the table, for money to a "luxury"? A new bat? what's that? my brothers and I would take a piece of plank and often carve out a bat. We would take tennis balls and wrap it up in tape. Use a bin as the stumps and the road as your field.

  4. #34
    U19 12th Man Rasimione's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeamUp View Post
    I think one thing we should get clear here is that unfortunately wherever there has been colonisation there has been poor treatment of indigenous people and South Africa was just the breaking point and highlighted more than other places for obvious reasons. But wrongs were done the world over.

    Then white cricketers were known to be standing up to the government during apartheid but the Afrikaans government then couldn't give two ****s especially about English-speaking dominated sport. The likes Eddie Barlow and Ali Bacher and his teammates tried things in vein to show their disappointment with the government. But in the end we lost out on 20 years of international cricket due to damn politicians what they brought on our country.

    On the issue that Heath Davis brings up. Definitely are poor white people around and go to less privileged schools but I think the issue here for a lot of less privileged blacks is the speed of the growth for them into the middle class blacks category. Loads of black government officials and their families are filling their pockets and living the high lives (not a simple middle class life) and sending their kids to good schools while the poor remain where they are. So there is a huge gap in the black African race. Because to go to a top school in SA you don't need to be stinking rich, you can do it if you are middle-class.

    I think if we look more closely at individuals....

    Tsolekile is from the Langa townships but his talent was spotted and got to go to Pinelands. Now Pinelands is a decentish school (past Protea was Craig Matthews) but it isn't on the scales of Wynberg, Rondebosch, Bishops and SACS facility wise. The reason he got this opportunity though was showing his talents even with his humble up bringings.

    Mfuneko Ngam attended a township school but his talents were still spotted and so they should have been. He was a serious talent.

    Lonwabo Tsotsobe went to Westering in PE. A school similar to Pinelands I mentioned above for Tsolekile. Definitely not in the top schools in Eastern Province.

    Makahya Ntini is a great story. But once again I say his talents were spotted in the townships by a Mr. Booi who continues to spend as much of his time in the cricket season trying to spot talents in the townships. So Ntini was afforded the privilege of going to a top school like Dale College which incidentally was a white dominated school in apartheid times but now is about at least 80% black African. Just think about the number of young black Africans getting great opportunities now at their facilities and with their coaches ? Same story for Queens College up the road where players like Tony Greig, Ken McEwan and Daryll Cullinan went to school, it is a black dominated school now.

    With the limited overs cricketers, Bosman (lower level school (Kimberley township), Tshabalala (lower level school in Welkom). Phangiso is from a township near Pretoria and went to a Christian college (CBC Pretoria). I'm not sure on the circumstances. The only one here that went to a top school was Victor Mpitsang (Grey Bloem).

    A few domestic examples again is someone like Mangaliso Mosehle from Duduza township from one of our smaller cricketing provinces (Easterns) making it to the domestic cricket and playing SA u19. Bavuma and Zondo went to good schools but someone like Mbhalati went to the same school as Dale Steyn in the little known Merensky in the Limpopo Province which has no real history in producing any cricketers at all.

    But I think the point is there are white, black, coloured, Asian cricketers making it professionally who don't necessarily go to the top schools so it can be done. For as long as cricket has been going in South Africa our top schools have produced cricketers (traditions are there) and if the most talented black cricketers from the townships get spotted and get scholarships then so be it but this is how we will hopefully get better representation down the years. I would like to think we shouldn't deprive these talents these opportunities ? That is from a sporting perspective. Politicians and government need to sort out socio-economic problems and it shouldn't get mixed up in representative sport.

    As some know, I like to follow our young talented cricketers and their performances. If I look at the most talent young black cricketers.

    Solo Nqweni (20) Grey PE
    Lesiba Ngoepe (20) Hans Moore
    Kagiso Rabada (18) St Stithians
    Ngazibini Sigwili (18) Hudson Park
    Sine Ntshona (18) St Andrews
    Sibonelo Makhanya (17) DHS
    Andile Phehlukwayo Glenwood
    Lungisani Ngidi (17) Hilton
    Lesego Senokwane (16) St Conrads
    Kabelo Sekhukhune (16) Hans Moore
    Wandile Makwetu (14) St Stithians

    * Of that bunch only Rabada, Ntshona, Ngidi and Makwetu are going to rich private schools. Traditional cricket schools like Grey PE , Hudson Park , DHS and Glenwood are payable if you are in the lower end of the middle class group even so who are we to even know if whether their parents earned their money the hard way to send their kids there ? One thing I'm glad about and that is we are seeing more talent these days like above now but just like any white (English, Afrikaans, Jewish, Portuguese, Greek, Italian), coloured or Asian (Cape Malay Muslim, Indian Muslim, Indian Christian or Indian Hindu) cricketer, it is extremely difficult to make it professionally as a cricketer in SA. Loads of competition for limited spots.

    But we mustn't forget the academies that Ngam and Ntini have started in Alice and East London now. As I say strides are being made in the right manner but these things will take time.
    Yes that is what has been happening. Guys from townships getting scholarships to study at formerly white schools. The question is, for how long should this continue to happen? Surely you will concede it happens because no matter how talented they are, they wont make it if their based in the township schools.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasimione View Post
    Yes that is what has been happening. Guys from townships getting scholarships to study at formerly white schools. The question is, for how long should this continue to happen? Surely you will concede it happens because no matter how talented they are, they wont make it if their based in the township schools.
    Same could be said for most formerly white government schools.

    Most players come from a handful of schools.

    Out of the white guys in the current side, Morkel and Steyn went to pretty 'ordinary schools', while Smith went to KES (same school as De Kock, Steven Cook, Neil McKenzie), Kallis went to Wynberg Boys, and Du Plessis and De Villiers went to Affies in Pretoria. These are all 'elite' schools, and the vast majority of white SA Test cricketers would have come from a pool of probably 20 schools.

    I believe the situation in the UK is the same, most Test players will have come from private schools, with good facilities and so on. I don't think it is an isolated phenomenon in South Africa.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProteasFan View Post
    Very interesting thread and quite a few valid points. I think we cannot underestimate the financial barrier to cricket, or sport, in general in SA. When you see people earning a pittance, you often ask yourself " how do they live?" and I can assure you that playing for the national team in any sport is the furthest thing from their mind.They just want to get by IMO.


    I love cricket and played it from the age of 7 with my brothers and neighborhood kids and learnt all the ideas and nuisances at an early age, but it wasn't possible to play club cricket in my community. There was a club but how do you go up to your parents who earned minimum wage, enough just to keep bread on the table, for money to a "luxury"? A new bat? what's that? my brothers and I would take a piece of plank and often carve out a bat. We would take tennis balls and wrap it up in tape. Use a bin as the stumps and the road as your field.
    And if you become a member of a club there are club fees to pay, ball fees on match days etc.

    Cricket is not a cheap game, unfortunately.

  7. #37
    International 12th Man SeamUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasimione View Post
    Yes that is what has been happening. Guys from townships getting scholarships to study at formerly white schools. The question is, for how long should this continue to happen? Surely you will concede it happens because no matter how talented they are, they wont make it if their based in the township schools.
    No, I don't I've proven that isn't entirely necessary above. Take for example Vernon Philander, he grew up on the Cape Flats playing with planks and tennis balls and cardboard boxes for wickets and went to little Ravensmead High School and look where he got to.

    To me it is an excuse because a large percentage of Indian, Pakistan, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi cricketers grow up in a poor environment and have to get creative playing cricket in the streets.

    Afterall most most young people in South Africa learn the basics of the game, playing on road tarmac or in a bumpy park with a piece of wood or as good as and tennis ball till about 9 or 10 years of age. I also agree that are we alone in that good schools produce cricketers, I'm sure England, Australia , New Zealand, India and Sri Lanka have the same.
    Last edited by SeamUp; 08-01-2014 at 04:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeamUp View Post
    No, I don't I've proven that isn't entirely necessary above. Take for example Vernon Philander, he grew up on the Cape Flats playing with planks and tennis balls and cardboard boxes for wickets and went to little Ravensmead High School and look where he got to.

    To me it is an excuse because a large percentage of Indian, Pakistan, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi cricketers grow up in a poor environment and have to get creative playing cricket in the streets.

    Afterall most most young people in South Africa learn the basics of the game, playing on road tarmac or in a bumpy park with a piece of wood or as good as and tennis ball till about 9 or 10 years of age. I also agree that are we alone in that good schools produce cricketers, I'm sure England, Australia , New Zealand, India and Sri Lanka have the same.
    disagree with you entirely, tbh.

    it's a massive disadvantage. Just cos someone has done it doesn't mean there aren't preventative barriers in place.

  9. #39
    International 12th Man SeamUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    disagree with you entirely, tbh.

    it's a massive disadvantage. Just cos someone has done it doesn't mean there aren't preventative barriers in place.
    Look all around the cricketing world and there are situations of less advantaged and more advantaged but there are plenty of examples of it not letting people down.

    While it may be an excuse for some and not for others, then interest levels in the sport need to be looked at in whatever way because that is another reason because I've said cricket can be played in a very simplistic manner with not much just for enjoyment levels at 6,7,8,9,10,11 years of age.

    As I have said whether you are coloured like Vernon Philander, white like Dale Steyn or black like Mfuneko Ngam they all got scouted in less privileged schools because they had the talent.

    Rasimione's problem is when talented black cricketers get scouted in disadvantaged areas and get scholarships to go to good schools. I think this is a positive step and kudos to these less advantaged youngsters who are getting themselves into situations to show their talents whatever held them back. Makhaya Ntini never held a normal cricket ball until he was scouted by a guy called Raymond Booi who is still to this day scouting for Black African talent in the Eastern Cape. It is not like steps haven't been made.
    Last edited by SeamUp; 08-01-2014 at 04:45 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marius
    Um, that is completely wrong.

    The term 'Mixed race' has no formal status in South Africa, whereas Coloured does. In general, the current government still uses the classifications that were used by the apartheid government.

    Coloured people are the descendants of European settlers, Bantu people, the Cape Malay, and the original inhabitants of the Cape, the Khoi and the San, and is still used by the government today to describe these people and their descendants.

    Mixed race people will be people who are the result of inter-racial relationships in the last, say 20 years, since the end of apartheid.
    Dude! I am Coloured but my family, extended family and community is such a mish-mash of racial and cultural diversity, I sometimes have to take a timeout to remember that I am "Coloured".

    Its been 20 years since since the dawn of democracy in our country and things have definitely changed...the most notable being issues revolving around race, ethnicity and culture. Where previously a system seeked to subjugate people's by classifying them, we now have taken ownership of those label's - once so repugnant - and made them our own investing them with context, meaning, pride and identity. So when I say I am Coloured, it has significance for me and others beyond the apartheid classification system. Similarly, when someone say's they are mixed race, it has meaning and context beyond the Apartheid classification system.

    This principle is applicable to all race groups across SA. You go to Johannesburg and you call someone of mixed race/ethnicity a "Coloured" and they take offense! You go to the Western Cape and call someone of mixed ethnicity a "Mixed Race" and they will take offense.

    You as an individual own your culture and identity! It does not own you!

    As an example, Phylicia Oppelt, the editor of the Sunday times, refers to her self as black (hence she is very adamant and vocal about pro-transformation). You would be hard pressed to actually associate her name and visual racial make up as black but that's what she say's so that's the end of the discussion!

    When you learn to see South Africa through Nelson's Mandela's eyes, you see a land of so much ethnic, racial and cultural diversity. Where previously there were just massive blobs of people stuffed into a classifications, you now have distinct racial, ethnic and cultural distinctions. For instance, white people take proud in being distinguished as Afrikaner, European, French Huguenot, Dutch where black people take proud in being Zulu, Zhosa, Venda, Sotho, Shangaan, Ndebele, etc, people of sub continent descent take pride in being Pakistani, Arabic, Indian and people in the Western cape take distinct pride in being classed as Malay, Coloured, Mixed Race, Xhosa, San or Khoi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marius View Post
    I've read this about 5 times and I'm still not sure what your point is.
    I'm not a New Zealander so forgive me if I step on toes.

    The biggest sport in NZ is rugby. Way back in second place is cricket. For such a small island nation, they are considered to be the rulers of world rugby which is statistically quite an accomplishment (bar a couple of vociferous objections from some saffa's). The whole country is mad about rugby and the whole countries energy is focused on producing a team that can murder any competition. While this is great for Rugby in NZ, its bad news for the Black Caps because all the best athletes in the country choose rugby over cricket. The Black Caps invariably end up with the passionate cricket lovers and second tier athletes who just didn't cut it at Rugby. This has financial consequences also because the cricket New Zealand find it hard to fill a cricket stadium but New Zealand Rugby can sell out a All Black match twice over. If you could for one second imagine the whole All Black team bringing that Economic clout, athletic capital, excellence and intensity to the Black Caps game and cricket infrastructure, do you think the NZ team would be languishing on the bottom of the ICC rankings?

    This is where you can draw parallel's with SAF. The greater population are more inclined to choose soccer as an athletic outlet and this is where the parallel ends with NZ because while the choosing between rugby and cricket is a conscious choice in NZ, its not a choice in SAF because for most, cricket is not viable due to reason's stated in other posts. If you take another extreme example; a country such as India has a billion souls who are mad about cricket and has all their athletic potential invested in producing the best cricketers in the world (which they do...constantly producing some of the best batters I have seen). And then you get SAF...where the game is restricted to a select group and seeks to remain that way. If you are a logical and rational person and had your Cricket South Africa hat on, how would you go about trying to justify only investing in athletic capital from certain segments of the national population especially given our tumultuous history as a country? Does it not make sense that the bigger the talent pool you have to choose from, the more cricket exellence and economic viability you can produce?

    This argument coupled with adequate national representation of the Protea's are 2 of the biggest talking points behind transformation in CSA.
    Hurricane likes this.

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    The South African government divides the population into four racial categories: African, Coloured, Indian (all three of which fall under the overall classification of black), and whites.

    Not arguing with you about identity and so on, but the Coloured label is still with us, like it or not.

    The current government is making the same mistake as the previous one by forcing us to fit into certain racial categories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unomaas View Post
    I'm not a New Zealander so forgive me if I step on toes.

    The biggest sport in NZ is rugby. Way back in second place is cricket. For such a small island nation, they are considered to be the rulers of world rugby which is statistically quite an accomplishment (bar a couple of vociferous objections from some saffa's). The whole country is mad about rugby and the whole countries energy is focused on producing a team that can murder any competition. While this is great for Rugby in NZ, its bad news for the Black Caps because all the best athletes in the country choose rugby over cricket. The Black Caps invariably end up with the passionate cricket lovers and second tier athletes who just didn't cut it at Rugby. This has financial consequences also because the cricket New Zealand find it hard to fill a cricket stadium but New Zealand Rugby can sell out a All Black match twice over. If you could for one second imagine the whole All Black team bringing that Economic clout, athletic capital, excellence and intensity to the Black Caps game and cricket infrastructure, do you think the NZ team would be languishing on the bottom of the ICC rankings?

    This is where you can draw parallel's with SAF. The greater population are more inclined to choose soccer as an athletic outlet and this is where the parallel ends with NZ because while the choosing between rugby and cricket is a conscious choice in NZ, its not a choice in SAF because for most, cricket is not viable due to reason's stated in other posts. If you take another extreme example; a country such as India has a billion souls who are mad about cricket and has all their athletic potential invested in producing the best cricketers in the world (which they do...constantly producing some of the best batters I have seen). And then you get SAF...where the game is restricted to a select group and seeks to remain that way. If you are a logical and rational person and had your Cricket South Africa hat on, how would you go about trying to justify only investing in athletic capital from certain segments of the national population especially given our tumultuous history as a country? Does it not make sense that the bigger the talent pool you have to choose from, the more cricket exellence and economic viability you can produce?

    This argument coupled with adequate national representation of the Protea's are 2 of the biggest talking points behind transformation in CSA.
    I agree with you completely, but you also missed the whole point of my argument.

    Which African can we put into the Test team, today, that will not be completely out of their depth?

    How do you think Themba Bavuma is going to do against Mitch Johnson, Siddle etc? He will be blown away.

    Tsolekile is the only viable option, and now that AB is in good form with the gloves I doubt he will get a look in.

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    I think neither of you are in disagreement with each of your main points in that the change mustn't happen in the national team but right from the ground up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marius View Post
    I completely agree there has to be change, and it's got to start by giving black kids the opportunity to play.

    I think you completely missed the point of the article, which was that Moonda and Vice seem to imply that black Africans are being kept out of the team on purpose, which is clearly not the case.

    And with regard to quotas, the only black cricketer playing now who would come close to holding his own at Test level is Thami Tsolekile. No other black cricketers are Test quality at the moment. Themba Bavuma may be in a few years, as might guys like Gqamane and Eddie Leie, but right now the pool of possible Test cricketers is tiny.

    We can't put the cart before the horse
    I would challenge you to post this article on a platform such as News24, South Africa's premier news source, provides breaking news on national, world, Africa, sport, entertainment, technology & more. and then after a day count all the likes you would get. Odds are, thousands! But are they an accurate representation of the South African population? What you fail to understand is that while your article resonates with a certain segment of the population, there's the other greater majority of the population and their one eyebrow is trying to climb out their individual skulls trying to understand why CSA is dragging its feet and not getting with the national program?

    Merit should trump politics everytime but South Africa is a special case. If I could put it into perspective, on one extreme, we could go the Zimbabwe cricket route and forcefully implement national representation in the team, or we can pursue the other extreme, remove the SAF flag and representation from the Protea's team and rebrand them as "A Cricket Team in South Africa" thereby losing all rights to represent the country.

    Both options are repugnant! Somehow we have to find a compromise in the middle that benefits everyone!

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